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"Losing". As if Taiwan and Japan are owned by the USA. The title itself speaks loudly about the mindset of the author and the American ruling class, but reveals
by pastacacioepepe 4y ago
"Losing". As if Taiwan and Japan are owned by the USA. The title itself speaks loudly about the mindset of the author and the American ruling class, but reveals also the truth. Taiwan is an ex military dictatorship born as a puppet state for the USA to counter communist China.
- CoastalCoder 4y agoThe term "losing" doesn't have such a specific connotation for me. E.g., losing a friend to a drunk driver.
- deft-code 4y agoI read the article the feeling got was "losing" was used similar to losing a district in an election. Not ownership of the district, but definitely a decrease of the party's (owned) influence and power due to that districts allegiance. Another more mundane analogy, a sports team can lose a player in the say way.
- jeswin 4y ago> Taiwan is an ex military dictatorship born as a puppet state for the USA to counter communist China. It is immaterial what Taiwan was born as. It is a self-governing, free country, and the only thing that matters should be the wishes of the people who live there. And that overwhelmingly is to not be a part of communist China.
- FooBarWidget 4y agoIf only we are consistent in applying this standard. Are Hawaiian, native American, Puerto Rican, Ryuku etc independence activists' wish also important or is only Taiwan's wish important? If only Taiwan, then we do truly believe in this standard or is it just a moral cover for geopolitical interest?
- SonicScrub 4y agoThis is kind of a silly comment. Of course the US interest in Taiwan has to do with geopolitical interest rather than a moral standing. That doesn't stop me (or anyone else) from believing that the Taiwanese should be entitled to self-determination. Or the Hawaiians, Indigenous peoples, or Puerto Ricans for that matter. If support for that aim happens to come from the US then that's fine by me. Moral consistency from a national government is not something I require or expect.
- sabarn01 4y agoTaiwan has been independent in fact for a long time. Changning the status quo seems to require more justification. If large majorities of Taiwanese want to join China than that is their prerogative.
- pessimizer 4y agoOr Eastern Ukraine for that matter. If there were actually concern about the self-determination of people who lived there, they would have been asked. We don't ask, because we know what the answer would be.
- mthoms 4y agoWell they were asked. They voted to be part of an independent Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_re... Should they be asked again? Maybe. But it’s impossible to do fairly at the present time.
- xtian 4y agoThe vast majority support the status quo[1], which the West is investing billions in interfering with on the military, economic, and political fronts. It’s doing so for its own reasons, not out of any affection for the people of Taiwan (of which it has none). [1] https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4350512 https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4350512
- jeswin 4y agoStatus quo is being able to run their own country and free-and-fair elections. And besides, the question was asked under the threat of China's automatic invasion if it ever formally declared independence - I suppose people don't want to die.
- xtian 4y agoI agree, people don’t want to die. So absent an outside force stoking antagonisms, they will generally find a way to resolve disputes with their neighbors peacefully.
- amalgamated_inc 4y agoCorrection: I have quite a bit of affection for the people of Taiwan. So there's at least one.
- pessimizer 4y agoThe person you're replying to didn't say that no one has affection for Taiwan. You (likely) have no part in deciding US-China policy.
- amalgamated_inc 4y ago> The vast majority support the status quo[1], which the West is investing billions in interfering with on the military, economic, and political fronts. It’s doing so for its own reasons, not out of any affection for the people of Taiwan (of which it has none). I'm part of The West :)
- pastacacioepepe 4y agoWhat about Cuba then, can we leave them alone?
- pessimizer 4y agoIt is a self-governing, "free" "country" whose founding political party supports the policy of "one China, two systems," and where recent elections saw China-hostile politicians decimated. https://www.npr.org/2022/11/26/1139270577/taiwan-election-president-resigns-china https://www.npr.org/2022/11/26/1139270577/taiwan-election-pr... edit: What the US is doing with Taiwan is not being done based on consultation with the Taiwanese people. It is not for the Taiwanese.
- jeswin 4y agoTwo systems as in Hong Kong? Btw, those were local elections and if you've been reading Taiwanese news sources, you'd find that nobody saw those elections as a referendum on joining China.
- pessimizer 4y agoHong Kong was a British colony seized from China by force, and reverted to Chinese governance as scheduled. The idea that China should respect Britain's status quo is laughable.
- jeswin 4y agoSure, I agree. I was only implying that nobody takes the "One-country two-systems" promise seriously. Much less the Taiwanese.
- Apocryphon 4y agoPolitics are, as they say, local. The KMT doing well in recent elections are due to a lot of different issues, not necessarily something as abstract and high-minded as the status of the nation. A periodic election is not the same thing as a national referendum.
- mezentius 4y agoIt's almost as if you didn't read the article you linked, which summarizes, "the elections likely hinged on local issues, not China." Polls indicate that the Taiwanese overwhelmingly want to either "maintain the status quo" or "maintain the status quo with incremental movement toward independence" (https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963 https://esc.nccu.edu.tw/PageDoc/Detail?fid=7801&id=6963), which is entirely what the US policy is intended to support! Like the Taiwanese people, we also don't want an apocalyptic conflict with China when the status quo is already de facto independence, regardless of what we call it to appease nationalist factions in Chinese domestic politics.
- Fauntleroy 4y agoAll such statements have the comical subtext of suggesting Chinese "ownership" of Taiwan would be a better scenario.
- pastacacioepepe 4y agoTaiwan is part of China. The USA also hypocritically recognize that.
- Fauntleroy 4y agoI wonder how the residents of Taiwan feel about this.
- pastacacioepepe 4y agoHow do the Catalonians feel about being part of Spain, or the russophone Ukrainians about being part of Ukraine? Not great. Do you care? If the answer is no, then what you are concerned about is not Taiwanese independence.
- SonicScrub 4y agoA people should have a right to self-determination. I can believe that just fine regardless of which people it's applied to. The current focus is in this discussion is about Taiwan, so naturally discussions about Taiwanese self-determination are going to be the focus in this thread. Maybe we'll get a thread about Catalonia sometime. When that happens we can discuss that. For now, let's bound our conversation to the article topic please, and stop trying to derail discussion with whataboutism.
- pessimizer 4y ago> let's bound our conversation to the article topic please, and stop trying to derail discussion with whataboutism. There's been no actual discussion about the self-determination of the Taiwanese, because the Taiwanese have not been asked whether they want to be separated from China, and any indication that they don't has been scrupulously ignored.
- mezentius 4y agoSure, and China used to be a sclerotic caste-based bureaucracy ruled by a hereditary elite. Things change. Taiwan isn't ruled by Chiang Kai-shek anymore; it's a sovereign, democratic society with a flourishing economy and a sense of identity distinctive from that of mainland China.
- Leary 4y agoChinese society was neither caste-based or ruled by a hereditary elite.