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Shouldn't the dispatcher have given more precise directions than "follow the river"? If they had said "take a right and follow the river", this wouldn't have b

Shouldn't the dispatcher have given more precise directions than "follow the river"? If they had said "take a right and follow the river", this wouldn't have been a problem. I suppose they were used to professional pilots knowing what was meant, but they were already working to fit a small plane into a larger system presumably filled with mostly larger jets from commercial airlines that flew in and out of that airport regularly. Although I do agree that the pilot should have had no-fly zones at the top of their mind when flying in or around D.C.

fh973 4y ago
Actually no. The fact that to the left was a restricted airspace (that the pilot must be aware of) disambiguates the instructions already. Obviously the pilot did not do their flight preparation, was it includes being familiar with any airspace restrictions.
- krisoft 4y ago
  Also. I'm looking at a chart of the DC airspace. P-56, the restricted airspace containing the White House, is not on any rivers. If you are following the river (left, right, doesn't matter) then you are not getting into P-56. If you are oscillating around the river then yeah, you are going to have a bad time. Also, I'm looking at all the runways at this airport. They all have one obvious direction which way you should be following the river. Just from the angle your flightpath would be crossing the river.
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    If you take off northbound, you only have a few seconds to turn left with the river before you’re over DC and into restricted airspace. If you take off and obliviously fly straight, it’s too late. It’s not a wide river. Once you’re across the river, turning left is way worse (takes you directly over the federal complex), so ATC told them to turn right to exit the restricted airspace. That would take them around over SE DC.
    - krisoft 4y ago
      Yeah. No joke. it is even on the departure chart: "Departing Rwy 1 requires expeditious intercept of outbound course to ensure avoidance of P-56 boundary"
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Taking off north-bound (runway 1) wouldn't give you the option of flying up the Anacostia (the right spur that bisects DC when looking at a standard map). Taking of north-east (runway 4) would give you the option of taking the Potomac (left) or Anacostia (right). I've never seen runway 4 used. It's usually a north flow using 1.
  - rtkwe 4y ago
    From the description they took off from 18 (now 19 due to pole drift) it sounds like they might have taken a left basically immediately off the runway which would put them pointed pretty directly at the restricted airspace around the Capital and White House. It is odd they'd be there though considering the story says the check for the river on reaching 1500 which even at best climb would be around two minutes after take off which should be well past the river.
pja 4y ago
They probably assumed that a) the pilot knew about the exclusion zone (kind of a big deal!) and b) you follow a river downstream (usually) so their instruction seemed (to them) unambiguous.
- jefftk 4y ago
  > you follow a river downstream (usually) Weird; I don't have that connotation of "follow" at all.
  - rtkwe 4y ago
    Taking off from runway 18 (now 19) you're pointed essentially down river already though. The Potomac is right there at the end of the runway. That's the most confusing part of the story to me is how he was ambiguously crossing the river after taking off basically straight downstream.
    - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
      Yeah; this part makes no sense. Anyone in possession of either a geographic sense of the area (or a VFR sectional) who has departed due south from National and is told to "maintain runway heading and follow the river" would not be confused.
      - rtkwe 4y ago
        It seems like the FAA guy had at least the core of the right idea that the author wasn't really prepared for flying out of such a busy airport and restricted area. Now afaik access is more restricted and flight plans from people who haven't taken a particular class on flying through Washington National will be denied, but you can still totally fly a small plane into and out of that airport if you really want to.
itslennysfault 4y ago
Honestly, I'm surprised by "follow the river" as a flight instruction. That sounds like the directions you'd get from someone that doesn't understand cardinal directions. "Turn right at the gas station, then turn left at the big oak tree" or something. I have no experience with flying, but I assumed it would be a heading / cardinal direction and not "turn right at [landmark]"
- throw827474737 4y ago
  Hmm, can someone just paint me that path into Google Maps? Washington National has no 18, but only a 19, and I guess everyone takes off southwards as directly north is the White House? Also the river is like parallel to the runway and then the natural extension of it, so "follow the river" there is super clear, no turn needed? I must be looking at the wrong airport?
  - tylermw 4y ago
    Many planes take off northwards, and immediately bank to follow the river. Famously, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90
  - snowwrestler 4y ago
    When planes take off northbound from National, they immediately bank left (northwest) to remain over the river and avoid the exclusion zones in DC. Conversely, planes landing southbound follow the river and so are banking to the right until a few seconds before touching down.
  - cowsup 4y ago
    You’re correct. I live near DC and travel there for photography (much like the novice pilot in the OP). If you’re flying near DC, or anywhere really, you should at least have a broad understanding of where you cannot fly. That is your responsibility; nobody in your ear will say “remember, don’t go to the restricted airspace.” The pilot never claims to be the victim here, either. They screwed up and learned their lesson.
  - 4y ago
Merad 4y ago
Not a pilot so I don't know if they'd use that language today, but there have been more than a few lessons written in blood over the years regarding ambiguous/unclear ATC communications. For example the worst air disaster ever occurred in part because a controller gave the instruction (paraphrasing), "cleared to beacon after takeoff." It was intended only as instructions to be followed after takeoff, but the pilot interpreted it as, "you are cleared to takeoff, then follow these instructions." The airport was under heavy fog at the time so he couldn't see the plane that was taxiing and hadn't cleared the runway yet. Two 747s collided and nearly 600 people died. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster

fh973 4y ago

Actually no. The fact that to the left was a restricted airspace (that the pilot must be aware of) disambiguates the instructions already. Obviously the pilot did not do their flight preparation, was it includes being familiar with any airspace restrictions.

krisoft 4y ago
Also. I'm looking at a chart of the DC airspace. P-56, the restricted airspace containing the White House, is not on any rivers. If you are following the river (left, right, doesn't matter) then you are not getting into P-56. If you are oscillating around the river then yeah, you are going to have a bad time. Also, I'm looking at all the runways at this airport. They all have one obvious direction which way you should be following the river. Just from the angle your flightpath would be crossing the river.
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  If you take off northbound, you only have a few seconds to turn left with the river before you’re over DC and into restricted airspace. If you take off and obliviously fly straight, it’s too late. It’s not a wide river. Once you’re across the river, turning left is way worse (takes you directly over the federal complex), so ATC told them to turn right to exit the restricted airspace. That would take them around over SE DC.
  - krisoft 4y ago
    Yeah. No joke. it is even on the departure chart: "Departing Rwy 1 requires expeditious intercept of outbound course to ensure avoidance of P-56 boundary"
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Taking off north-bound (runway 1) wouldn't give you the option of flying up the Anacostia (the right spur that bisects DC when looking at a standard map). Taking of north-east (runway 4) would give you the option of taking the Potomac (left) or Anacostia (right). I've never seen runway 4 used. It's usually a north flow using 1.
- rtkwe 4y ago
  From the description they took off from 18 (now 19 due to pole drift) it sounds like they might have taken a left basically immediately off the runway which would put them pointed pretty directly at the restricted airspace around the Capital and White House. It is odd they'd be there though considering the story says the check for the river on reaching 1500 which even at best climb would be around two minutes after take off which should be well past the river.

pja 4y ago

They probably assumed that a) the pilot knew about the exclusion zone (kind of a big deal!) and b) you follow a river downstream (usually) so their instruction seemed (to them) unambiguous.

jefftk 4y ago
> you follow a river downstream (usually) Weird; I don't have that connotation of "follow" at all.
- rtkwe 4y ago
  Taking off from runway 18 (now 19) you're pointed essentially down river already though. The Potomac is right there at the end of the runway. That's the most confusing part of the story to me is how he was ambiguously crossing the river after taking off basically straight downstream.
  - NovemberWhiskey 4y ago
    Yeah; this part makes no sense. Anyone in possession of either a geographic sense of the area (or a VFR sectional) who has departed due south from National and is told to "maintain runway heading and follow the river" would not be confused.
    - rtkwe 4y ago
      It seems like the FAA guy had at least the core of the right idea that the author wasn't really prepared for flying out of such a busy airport and restricted area. Now afaik access is more restricted and flight plans from people who haven't taken a particular class on flying through Washington National will be denied, but you can still totally fly a small plane into and out of that airport if you really want to.

itslennysfault 4y ago

Honestly, I'm surprised by "follow the river" as a flight instruction. That sounds like the directions you'd get from someone that doesn't understand cardinal directions. "Turn right at the gas station, then turn left at the big oak tree" or something. I have no experience with flying, but I assumed it would be a heading / cardinal direction and not "turn right at [landmark]"

throw827474737 4y ago
Hmm, can someone just paint me that path into Google Maps? Washington National has no 18, but only a 19, and I guess everyone takes off southwards as directly north is the White House? Also the river is like parallel to the runway and then the natural extension of it, so "follow the river" there is super clear, no turn needed? I must be looking at the wrong airport?
- tylermw 4y ago
  Many planes take off northwards, and immediately bank to follow the river. Famously, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Florida_Flight_90
- snowwrestler 4y ago
  When planes take off northbound from National, they immediately bank left (northwest) to remain over the river and avoid the exclusion zones in DC. Conversely, planes landing southbound follow the river and so are banking to the right until a few seconds before touching down.
- cowsup 4y ago
  You’re correct. I live near DC and travel there for photography (much like the novice pilot in the OP). If you’re flying near DC, or anywhere really, you should at least have a broad understanding of where you cannot fly. That is your responsibility; nobody in your ear will say “remember, don’t go to the restricted airspace.” The pilot never claims to be the victim here, either. They screwed up and learned their lesson.
- 4y ago

Merad 4y ago

Not a pilot so I don't know if they'd use that language today, but there have been more than a few lessons written in blood over the years regarding ambiguous/unclear ATC communications. For example the worst air disaster ever occurred in part because a controller gave the instruction (paraphrasing), "cleared to beacon after takeoff." It was intended only as instructions to be followed after takeoff, but the pilot interpreted it as, "you are cleared to takeoff, then follow these instructions." The airport was under heavy fog at the time so he couldn't see the plane that was taxiing and hadn't cleared the runway yet. Two 747s collided and nearly 600 people died. Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife_airport_disaster