6 ms·

Yes, the year over year improvements were 90% just the tsmc node changes. But the ridiculous (and IMO amazing) performance per watt is a mix of iOS/macOS and th

by sod 4y ago

Yes, the year over year improvements were 90% just the tsmc node changes. But the ridiculous (and IMO amazing) performance per watt is a mix of iOS/macOS and their chip design. Those efficiency cores are unmatched, paired with the right scheduling from the OS. The M2 is underwhelming as its the same 5nm as the M1 was. But rumors say the M2 pro and max are on the 3nm node. And it took so long for the release, as 3nm was delayed. Apple has a monopoly right now on 3nm, which is a shame. But if we only got tsmc to fire on all cylinders because apple stuffed them with money, then so be it.

deleted 4y ago
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cassianoleal 4y ago
> But the ridiculous (and IMO amazing) performance per watt is a mix of iOS/macOS and their chip design. Not disputing this, but even Asahi Linux without GPU acceleration has pretty much whole-day battery life on an M1 Air. I'm not sure how well their kernel manages scheduling on the different cores but I suspect the vast majority of the perf/Watt is on the actual hardware.
smoldesu 4y ago
It's worth noting that TSMC is looking to exploit Apple's demand for the hottest silicon. The latest reports suggest that they'll cut the prices to lure in others, so Apple will be forced to ante-up or stay on an old process: https://www.techspot.com/news/97269-tsmc-may-cut-3nm-wafer-prices-entice-amd.html https://www.techspot.com/news/97269-tsmc-may-cut-3nm-wafer-p... It's fascinating to think about. If the Mac is currently a low-margin product, Apple might be forced to stay on one node until the better silicon becomes cheap enough to use in production. If Apple doesn't play their cards right, TSMC could shanghai Apple in the exact same way Intel got stranded in the sea of process enhancement.
- scoopertrooper 4y ago
  The M1 Pro is thought to cost $96. I highly doubt the MacBook Pro will ever approach being a low margin product, even if TSMC triple their prices. https://medium.com/macoclock/is-apple-fleecing-you-a682c851a48e https://medium.com/macoclock/is-apple-fleecing-you-a682c851a...
Uehreka 4y ago
In the beginning I thought the “performance per watt” thing was just folks who want Apple to be better clinging to a stat that made it look like that was the case. But in late 2021 I was long overdue for an upgrade, so I got an M1 Max MacBook Pro and holy hell, now I get it. The battery lasts stupid long. Like, the fact that I can bring this thing on a plane or train without worrying if they’ll have working electric sockets is huge. The fact I can stash this thing under a desk with no power available and have it run graphics-intensive projections for a 3-hour theatre show is huge. The fact that I can achieve all that with zero throttling (I turned on High Energy use and never turned it off) is huge. The fact that I can achieve all of that with basically no fan noise is nonsensical. Like, compared to the 2020 Razer Blade (RTX 2070 Max-Q) I use for work, it’s like a completely different class of device. My Razer Blade spins up like a jet engine under load, requires a cable if I’m going to do anything intense for an hour, underclocks from ~4.4GHz to ~1.5-2.5GHz when on battery (seemingly no way to disable this), and really only beats my MacBook for tasks that specifically require an Nvidia GPU.
- mdasen 4y ago
  Yea, I upgraded to an M1 Pro and it's truly amazing. I used to always look at benchmarks and always want to upgrade to the newest thing that was coming out. Now I have a laptop that feels like it just works. It doesn't get hot, I've never heard the fan, and just so many of the typical worries/concerns just aren't there for me anymore. Yesterday, there was an article about Intel showing off a "35 watt" chip that was benchmarking better than last year's 125 watt chip. Except, you go into the comments and people note that it'll draw 107 watts for short periods of time - probably just long enough to get good benchmark scores. The magic of the M-series processors is that they have really great sustainable performance and without needing to draw power and create heat like Intel's. The Razor Blade machines are amazing in how they deal with the amount of heat generated with their liquid cooling and everything (it's quite a design), but as you note it's still a jet-engine sounding machine that requires being tethered to power. One of the big things that Apple showed off when introducing the M1 Pro/Max was the idea that you could be a creator doing your job and no longer feel like you were tied to a power outlet. Photoshop from a park or edit video wherever you are: you really don't need more power than you'll always have with you. As I said, I bought the M1 Pro and specifically upgraded to the 8 performance core version of it. I'd always bought the high-watt Intel processors for my MacBook, not the paltry 15W Intel parts. I had a 2020 MacBook Pro with 2.3GHz Core i7 (28W, 10nm) and I'd regularly have it get really hot, the fan often wasn't too loud but it was always a constant drone, and things felt slow. My next machine is going to be a MacBook Air. I feel like I'm using nothing on this machine. I have 8 performance cores and 2 efficiency cores, but it just feels like there's no point to having that much CPU. It's a really crazy feeling for me. Yes, more performance will be useful for some people, especially people who do video editing, graphics, etc. But damn does all my work never even come close to stressing this thing - something I'd regularly have a problem with on Intel's greatest drawing a lot more power and making a lot more heat just a year before. Intel has made some strides since then and I'm happy that their newer processors are doing well, but for the first time in my life it just feels like I don't care. I might grab a 3nm laptop from Apple when those come out, but I'm not anxiously awaiting them. I might just wait for whatever comes after TSMC's 3nm process. I am kinda excited that I can go to a MacBook Air.
johncalvinyoung 4y ago
According to Apple's press release^1, at least the M2 Pro is fabbed on a 'second generation 5nm' process. Since the power/cores/performance claims seem to be sub-linear going to the M2 Max, I'd expect it continues to share the same node. [1]: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/apple-unveils-m2-pro-and-m2-max-next-generation-chips-for-next-level-workflows/#:~:text=next-,M2%20Pro%3A%20Next%2DGeneration%20Performance%20for%20Pro%20Workflows,-Built%20using%20a https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/apple-unveils-m2-pro-...
rowanG077 4y ago
I'm not so sure that's true. Linux seems to handle these SoCs fine as well. The secret sauce in that regard seem much more in the very large amount of co-processors rather then the OS itself.

by sod 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

cassianoleal 4y ago

> But the ridiculous (and IMO amazing) performance per watt is a mix of iOS/macOS and their chip design. Not disputing this, but even Asahi Linux without GPU acceleration has pretty much whole-day battery life on an M1 Air. I'm not sure how well their kernel manages scheduling on the different cores but I suspect the vast majority of the perf/Watt is on the actual hardware.

smoldesu 4y ago

It's worth noting that TSMC is looking to exploit Apple's demand for the hottest silicon. The latest reports suggest that they'll cut the prices to lure in others, so Apple will be forced to ante-up or stay on an old process: https://www.techspot.com/news/97269-tsmc-may-cut-3nm-wafer-prices-entice-amd.html https://www.techspot.com/news/97269-tsmc-may-cut-3nm-wafer-p... It's fascinating to think about. If the Mac is currently a low-margin product, Apple might be forced to stay on one node until the better silicon becomes cheap enough to use in production. If Apple doesn't play their cards right, TSMC could shanghai Apple in the exact same way Intel got stranded in the sea of process enhancement.

scoopertrooper 4y ago
The M1 Pro is thought to cost $96. I highly doubt the MacBook Pro will ever approach being a low margin product, even if TSMC triple their prices. https://medium.com/macoclock/is-apple-fleecing-you-a682c851a48e https://medium.com/macoclock/is-apple-fleecing-you-a682c851a...

Uehreka 4y ago

In the beginning I thought the “performance per watt” thing was just folks who want Apple to be better clinging to a stat that made it look like that was the case. But in late 2021 I was long overdue for an upgrade, so I got an M1 Max MacBook Pro and holy hell, now I get it. The battery lasts stupid long. Like, the fact that I can bring this thing on a plane or train without worrying if they’ll have working electric sockets is huge. The fact I can stash this thing under a desk with no power available and have it run graphics-intensive projections for a 3-hour theatre show is huge. The fact that I can achieve all that with zero throttling (I turned on High Energy use and never turned it off) is huge. The fact that I can achieve all of that with basically no fan noise is nonsensical. Like, compared to the 2020 Razer Blade (RTX 2070 Max-Q) I use for work, it’s like a completely different class of device. My Razer Blade spins up like a jet engine under load, requires a cable if I’m going to do anything intense for an hour, underclocks from ~4.4GHz to ~1.5-2.5GHz when on battery (seemingly no way to disable this), and really only beats my MacBook for tasks that specifically require an Nvidia GPU.

mdasen 4y ago
Yea, I upgraded to an M1 Pro and it's truly amazing. I used to always look at benchmarks and always want to upgrade to the newest thing that was coming out. Now I have a laptop that feels like it just works. It doesn't get hot, I've never heard the fan, and just so many of the typical worries/concerns just aren't there for me anymore. Yesterday, there was an article about Intel showing off a "35 watt" chip that was benchmarking better than last year's 125 watt chip. Except, you go into the comments and people note that it'll draw 107 watts for short periods of time - probably just long enough to get good benchmark scores. The magic of the M-series processors is that they have really great sustainable performance and without needing to draw power and create heat like Intel's. The Razor Blade machines are amazing in how they deal with the amount of heat generated with their liquid cooling and everything (it's quite a design), but as you note it's still a jet-engine sounding machine that requires being tethered to power. One of the big things that Apple showed off when introducing the M1 Pro/Max was the idea that you could be a creator doing your job and no longer feel like you were tied to a power outlet. Photoshop from a park or edit video wherever you are: you really don't need more power than you'll always have with you. As I said, I bought the M1 Pro and specifically upgraded to the 8 performance core version of it. I'd always bought the high-watt Intel processors for my MacBook, not the paltry 15W Intel parts. I had a 2020 MacBook Pro with 2.3GHz Core i7 (28W, 10nm) and I'd regularly have it get really hot, the fan often wasn't too loud but it was always a constant drone, and things felt slow. My next machine is going to be a MacBook Air. I feel like I'm using nothing on this machine. I have 8 performance cores and 2 efficiency cores, but it just feels like there's no point to having that much CPU. It's a really crazy feeling for me. Yes, more performance will be useful for some people, especially people who do video editing, graphics, etc. But damn does all my work never even come close to stressing this thing - something I'd regularly have a problem with on Intel's greatest drawing a lot more power and making a lot more heat just a year before. Intel has made some strides since then and I'm happy that their newer processors are doing well, but for the first time in my life it just feels like I don't care. I might grab a 3nm laptop from Apple when those come out, but I'm not anxiously awaiting them. I might just wait for whatever comes after TSMC's 3nm process. I am kinda excited that I can go to a MacBook Air.

johncalvinyoung 4y ago

According to Apple's press release^1, at least the M2 Pro is fabbed on a 'second generation 5nm' process. Since the power/cores/performance claims seem to be sub-linear going to the M2 Max, I'd expect it continues to share the same node. [1]: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/apple-unveils-m2-pro-and-m2-max-next-generation-chips-for-next-level-workflows/#:~:text=next-,M2%20Pro%3A%20Next%2DGeneration%20Performance%20for%20Pro%20Workflows,-Built%20using%20a https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/01/apple-unveils-m2-pro-...

rowanG077 4y ago

I'm not so sure that's true. Linux seems to handle these SoCs fine as well. The secret sauce in that regard seem much more in the very large amount of co-processors rather then the OS itself.