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More anectdata. 16" M1 MBP user here (first batch). No problems with the screen. Travels with me literally everywhere I can take my backpack. No case. Are you

More anectdata. 16" M1 MBP user here (first batch). No problems with the screen. Travels with me literally everywhere I can take my backpack. No case. Are you using your laptop as a frisbee? As far as Apple tax, you pay for quality tools. In life you get what you pay for.

eropple 4y ago
They're not even that expensive as tools go, either. My Festool Domino was $1200. It makes one particular hole in a piece of wood. It's very, very good at it--but it doesn't replace my tablesaw ($600) or my bandsaw ($700) or my tracksaw ($400) or my drill/driver ($300) or my jointer ($600) or my planer ($900) or my drill press ($500) or or or--and I did not buy particular spendy variants of any of those, except the Domino. (I could've easily spent $2000 on a tablesaw alone.) Contrast this to a $2500 Macbook Pro, which is a future computer from beyond the moon that can do a ton of revenue-relative work without even kicking on its fans, and can watch Netflix besides. It is also small; it provides all those benefits in a thing that can fit on your coffee table, without the ongoing costs of storing actually expensive tools (edit: as mentioned downthread, for me that's about $550 a month based on my mortgage's square footage calculation). Computer people complaining about computer costs when they're paid six figures for what they do with them is...it really needs to stop. It's silly.
- chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
  Those tools will last forever so that money makes sense. Apples engages in planned obsolescence so the cost isnt the same. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
  - eropple 4y ago
    Consider how expensive it is to store and operate those tools. Square footage isn't cheap most places; my wood shop probably costs me about $550 a month in used space! In that light, refreshing a laptop every five years or so (on the low end for my usual cadence for Macs; both my 2016 and 2011 Macbook Pros are still in use for dedicated tasks) amortizes out a lot more pleasantly.
    - chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
      Consider how much space all the thrown out Apple products take up in landfills.
      - eropple 4y ago
        I haven't thrown out a MacBook in my entire life. All three are all still in use, and two of those were bought used in the first place. I also have three iPads, going back to the iPad 2, that are still in use. I cannot say that about the Android devices I have had in a similar length of time such as the Nexus 10's putrefying back case that makes it unpleasant to touch. And while I have the PC cases I have had for a decade, the rest of both of them have said hello to Theseus at least twice. So...what, then?
  - sgt101 4y ago
    Those tools will last forever, if you don't use them. But if you do they will wear out.
    - chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
      You maintain them because theyre made to be maintained. It's pretty hard to wear out silicon. That's why the batteries are glued in and they're made out of glass. To encourage them to artificially wear them out.
- Lio 4y ago
  That's an interesting example. Festool are definitely premium equipment. I (try to) buy quality tools but I can't really justify Festool for my bodgy DIY attempts. I can barely justify the Bosch Professional tools I tend to buy instead. My friend, an actual professional who fitted our kitchen, exclusively uses Festool. He can definitely justify it and swears by it. He says it's quicker and the tools suck up more dust which means less time cleaning up and less exposure to lung disease. He'd never consider buying a MacBook Pro though as he thinks Apple is for poseurs ...like me. I'm a professional software engineer and not a hairy arsed builder[1]. I spend roughly 8-10 hours a day on a laptop and I want a nice one. I'm probably going to switch from my Dell running Linux back to a MacBook Pro. (That's for the shiny logo to make me look cool in coffee shops and not the battery life, performance or general attention to detail obvs.) With regard to useful lifespan, I have an MBP from 2013 that's still going strong even if the OS updates from Apple are getting sparser. - 1. This, apparently, is the vernacular used by friends in the trades to describe a "proper" tradesman. You live and learn I guess. ;)
  - eropple 4y ago
    I only bought a Festool Domino because there's literally no other tool that does that. It's amazing; the thing is like cheating for panels or for trim. Everything else is a mix-and-match. My tracksaw is a Makita (uses the same rails as a Festool, feels fine, isn't Quite As Nice). My shop battery tools are DeWalt, my house battery tools are Skil 12V (which are really nice for the price, even if they're not as small as other 12V brands). My tablesaw is a Delta (also sold as a Ridgid). Though I've thought a lot about going to Festool for a hand sander, mine are...Bosch. ;) I do agree with your friend about dust collection though, which is why I use the tools I do use. Dust is the absolute worst, and it is worth spending money to solve that problem IMO. The thing about Festool (and also Fein)is that it's good at solving those problems portably, and in that light they're not that expensive. If you aren't a contractor and don't need to bring your entire work life around in a Systainer stack though, something like my 1.5HP Harbor Freight dust collector and a simple dust cyclone can get you very far by themselves. (They are, however, loud.) I've also gotten into 3D printing I've been building better dust accessories for my other stuff. (For example I've got a set of 4" dust couplers in development that are a WIP but are noticeably better than any of the options I have found online for a reasonable price and that work in a home shop without ducting.)
- John23832 4y ago
  Lol the funny thing is, I was going to bring up all the hardware tools in my garage as examples, but I figured most people here wouldn't care/get it.
  - eropple 4y ago
    Computer-toucher-to-woodworker pipeline is real.
    - anthomtb 4y ago
      Nothing relieves a day at the keyboard like the smell of sawdust.

eropple 4y ago

They're not even that expensive as tools go, either. My Festool Domino was $1200. It makes one particular hole in a piece of wood. It's very, very good at it--but it doesn't replace my tablesaw ($600) or my bandsaw ($700) or my tracksaw ($400) or my drill/driver ($300) or my jointer ($600) or my planer ($900) or my drill press ($500) or or or--and I did not buy particular spendy variants of any of those, except the Domino. (I could've easily spent $2000 on a tablesaw alone.) Contrast this to a $2500 Macbook Pro, which is a future computer from beyond the moon that can do a ton of revenue-relative work without even kicking on its fans, and can watch Netflix besides. It is also small; it provides all those benefits in a thing that can fit on your coffee table, without the ongoing costs of storing actually expensive tools (edit: as mentioned downthread, for me that's about $550 a month based on my mortgage's square footage calculation). Computer people complaining about computer costs when they're paid six figures for what they do with them is...it really needs to stop. It's silly.

chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
Those tools will last forever so that money makes sense. Apples engages in planned obsolescence so the cost isnt the same. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
- eropple 4y ago
  Consider how expensive it is to store and operate those tools. Square footage isn't cheap most places; my wood shop probably costs me about $550 a month in used space! In that light, refreshing a laptop every five years or so (on the low end for my usual cadence for Macs; both my 2016 and 2011 Macbook Pros are still in use for dedicated tasks) amortizes out a lot more pleasantly.
  - chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
    Consider how much space all the thrown out Apple products take up in landfills.
    - eropple 4y ago
      I haven't thrown out a MacBook in my entire life. All three are all still in use, and two of those were bought used in the first place. I also have three iPads, going back to the iPad 2, that are still in use. I cannot say that about the Android devices I have had in a similar length of time such as the Nexus 10's putrefying back case that makes it unpleasant to touch. And while I have the PC cases I have had for a decade, the rest of both of them have said hello to Theseus at least twice. So...what, then?
- sgt101 4y ago
  Those tools will last forever, if you don't use them. But if you do they will wear out.
  - chamwislothe2nd 4y ago
    You maintain them because theyre made to be maintained. It's pretty hard to wear out silicon. That's why the batteries are glued in and they're made out of glass. To encourage them to artificially wear them out.
Lio 4y ago
That's an interesting example. Festool are definitely premium equipment. I (try to) buy quality tools but I can't really justify Festool for my bodgy DIY attempts. I can barely justify the Bosch Professional tools I tend to buy instead. My friend, an actual professional who fitted our kitchen, exclusively uses Festool. He can definitely justify it and swears by it. He says it's quicker and the tools suck up more dust which means less time cleaning up and less exposure to lung disease. He'd never consider buying a MacBook Pro though as he thinks Apple is for poseurs ...like me. I'm a professional software engineer and not a hairy arsed builder[1]. I spend roughly 8-10 hours a day on a laptop and I want a nice one. I'm probably going to switch from my Dell running Linux back to a MacBook Pro. (That's for the shiny logo to make me look cool in coffee shops and not the battery life, performance or general attention to detail obvs.) With regard to useful lifespan, I have an MBP from 2013 that's still going strong even if the OS updates from Apple are getting sparser. - 1. This, apparently, is the vernacular used by friends in the trades to describe a "proper" tradesman. You live and learn I guess. ;)
- eropple 4y ago
  I only bought a Festool Domino because there's literally no other tool that does that. It's amazing; the thing is like cheating for panels or for trim. Everything else is a mix-and-match. My tracksaw is a Makita (uses the same rails as a Festool, feels fine, isn't Quite As Nice). My shop battery tools are DeWalt, my house battery tools are Skil 12V (which are really nice for the price, even if they're not as small as other 12V brands). My tablesaw is a Delta (also sold as a Ridgid). Though I've thought a lot about going to Festool for a hand sander, mine are...Bosch. ;) I do agree with your friend about dust collection though, which is why I use the tools I do use. Dust is the absolute worst, and it is worth spending money to solve that problem IMO. The thing about Festool (and also Fein)is that it's good at solving those problems portably, and in that light they're not that expensive. If you aren't a contractor and don't need to bring your entire work life around in a Systainer stack though, something like my 1.5HP Harbor Freight dust collector and a simple dust cyclone can get you very far by themselves. (They are, however, loud.) I've also gotten into 3D printing I've been building better dust accessories for my other stuff. (For example I've got a set of 4" dust couplers in development that are a WIP but are noticeably better than any of the options I have found online for a reasonable price and that work in a home shop without ducting.)
John23832 4y ago
Lol the funny thing is, I was going to bring up all the hardware tools in my garage as examples, but I figured most people here wouldn't care/get it.
- eropple 4y ago
  Computer-toucher-to-woodworker pipeline is real.
  - anthomtb 4y ago
    Nothing relieves a day at the keyboard like the smell of sawdust.