4 ms·

Capitalism has been responsible for lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty. Communism, or any other system, can’t make that same claim. Unless you have a

by refurb 4y ago

Capitalism has been responsible for lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty. Communism, or any other system, can’t make that same claim. Unless you have an alternative, your claims of exploration will fall on deaf ears.

PheonixPharts 4y ago
“lifting out of poverty” is defined in terms of consumption. A family living on a farm and providing most of their own needs, living sustainably for generations, is by most definitions “living in poverty” because they consume very little. Now if you strip that family of their land and force them to work in factories their consumption goes way up since they no longer are able to support themselves. That family has now been “lifted out of poverty”. But yes, you are correct, no system has made people more depended on exploitation then Capitialism.
- refurb 4y ago
  You realize “consumption” includes things like medical care, nutritious food, quality education, better housing? It actually makes up a very large part of consumption in developed nations. You’re idealizing the crushing poverty of sustenance farming. Have you ever been to a developing country? Talked to the families who choose to abandon their farming and work in a factory so their kids can get proper healthcare, better schooling and living in a house without a toilet that feeds into the river? Plenty of them could continue to work as farmers and choose not too. Who are you to claim their choice is wrong? I’m guessing you’ve lived a comfy life and take all of these things for granted and then sneer at those who want the same.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  The poorest countries account for the least amount of trade globally. They don't have factories, but I imagine you would contrive that owning next to nothing and teetering on the edge of extreme poverty is preferable to working in a factory. That type of work is what created the 4 Asian Tigers, seems ridiculous to knock it. You're romanticizing primitivism.
- tpmoney 4y ago
  Lifting out of poverty is also defined in terms of "not starving to death because the winter was too long or cold", "not losing a half a years labor and food because a tornado hit your field", "not having to do manual labor 12 hours a day" and yes "access to material wealth" like indoor plumbing, labor saving devices like washing machines, and the ability to send your children to be educated instead of needing them as additional physical labor when they're old enough. Access to modern medical care and medications. I know some people enjoy farming, and enjoy the rough life. Me personally I'm glad that I don't have to plan months in advance to heat my house for the winter, can obtain literally any food I can imagine within 30 minutes and obtain enough food to feed a family for a month with little more than 40 hours of labor and a 1 hour shipping trip.
  - wavefunction 4y ago
    I would point out that under capitalism there have been famines even when there has been plenty of surplus food. A lack of famine either acute nor chronic is surely not a defining characteristic of capitalism.
    - tpmoney 4y ago
      You don't need a famine to starve to death when you're a subsistence farmer, you just need your local area to suffer an unexpected weather event. Too much winter, too much heat, too much rain, too many storms, too many insects. Take your pick of natural disaster. When you and your entire country are subsistence farmers, there's not exactly a lot of surplus or distribution networks to get you replacement food when your local area suffers.
    - lanfeust6 4y ago
      This is pretty uniformly attributed to government policy, not "Capitalism". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
- ch4s3 4y ago
  I don’t know… my grandparents were literally sharecroppers and my grandmother said it was ducking miserable. When she was a child most people lost children to disease and still in 1920, sometimes to hunger. But the economy changed and improved and they eventually owned an air conditioned home and two cars. She said the improvement in her life from childhood until I was born were almost unimaginable.
- helloworld11 4y ago
  Prey tell, how do you live? How would you in practice have your children and other family members live? If you're even moderately well off, very little if nothing stops you from seeking exactly the life you idealize in your comment. Resources for learning all its hard tricks and labors abound (largely due to the very same capitalist-fed internet of commodified information sharing that you disdain). But by all means, decide for hundreds of millions of subsistence farmers that their lives of toil were preferable to the things generations of them strove for despite "having to" consume more.
sudosysgen 4y ago
Unless you consider the Chinese to be a shining capitalism, the proportional of people in poverty hasn't been decreased by capitalism.
- refurb 4y ago
  It’s doesn’t have to be “shining” capitalism to be free market reforms. It’s pretty clear even “state capitalism” leads to wealth and the elimination of abject poverty.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    That's actually not what it shows. It shows that the free market focused development model which was popular across the entire rest of the world did not, in aggregate, reduce abject poverty. > It’s pretty clear even “state capitalism” leads to wealth and the elimination of abject poverty. What even is the difference between such heavy state capitalism and socialism? Socialist economies existed with various level of market involvement and economic freedom, see Lenin's NEP - was the USSR initially a champion of free market reform?
    - Jensson 4y ago
      You are mixing up democracy and capitalism. All democracies happens to be capitalist today since people quickly vote away communist leaders when they can, but that doesn't mean that democracy and capitalism are the same thing. China can be capitalist without democratic elections, I'd argue that is where they are today and where they have been since the "Chinese miracle" started.
- Jensson 4y ago
  China is capitalist, they just aren't democratic. They kept the authoritarian regime with sham elections from their communism days but changed everything else into capitalist systems, they are as capitalist as a typical western country today.
  - 4y ago
D_Alex 4y ago
>Communism, or any other system, can’t make that same claim. I don't really think communism is a viable economic system, because of, you know, people. However, a couple of points should be made: - Communism has always had to deal with enmity of world's richest and most influential nations (USA and UK in particular). Possibly because communism has had this inbuilt idea that it needs to spread to everywhere, whether they like it or not (kind of like some religions). Could this have been otherwise? I don't know. - Between 1922 and 1962, USSR's economy grew at an average of about 9% real per annum, despite having to deal with the massive trauma of World War 2. Also, income inequality decreased. Population went from ~140 million in poverty to ~240 million living, um, not in poverty. So... it is not quite as simple as you make it out to be.
- Jabbles 4y ago
  Between 1922 and 1962, USSR's economy grew at an average of about 9% real per annum Growing from a bad start and where you can copy a more developed nation makes this easier. https://bearkunin.medium.com/soviet-union-facts-and-fictions-part-1-the-economy-2a79ff1013a7 https://bearkunin.medium.com/soviet-union-facts-and-fictions...
  - D_Alex 4y ago
    >Growing from a bad start and where you can copy a more developed nation makes this easier. True. But you know what really makes economic growth easier? Foreign aid. Also trade. The USSR otoh had to deal with sanctions. https://www.americanforeignrelations.com/E-N/Embargoes-and-Sanctions-Cold-war-sanctions.html https://www.americanforeignrelations.com/E-N/Embargoes-and-S...
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      Yet they weren't alone in the world. They were next to China and other friendlies.
      - D_Alex 4y ago
        China was friendly with the USSR only briefly, like in the 1950s. It was desperately poor at the time, and received a lot of aid from the USSR. I don't know what other friendlies you mean. USSR installed communist/socialist governments in the countries it liberated from German occupation after WW2, but those relationships were... complicated.

by refurb 4y ago

PheonixPharts 4y ago

“lifting out of poverty” is defined in terms of consumption. A family living on a farm and providing most of their own needs, living sustainably for generations, is by most definitions “living in poverty” because they consume very little. Now if you strip that family of their land and force them to work in factories their consumption goes way up since they no longer are able to support themselves. That family has now been “lifted out of poverty”. But yes, you are correct, no system has made people more depended on exploitation then Capitialism.

refurb 4y ago
You realize “consumption” includes things like medical care, nutritious food, quality education, better housing? It actually makes up a very large part of consumption in developed nations. You’re idealizing the crushing poverty of sustenance farming. Have you ever been to a developing country? Talked to the families who choose to abandon their farming and work in a factory so their kids can get proper healthcare, better schooling and living in a house without a toilet that feeds into the river? Plenty of them could continue to work as farmers and choose not too. Who are you to claim their choice is wrong? I’m guessing you’ve lived a comfy life and take all of these things for granted and then sneer at those who want the same.
slothtrop 4y ago
The poorest countries account for the least amount of trade globally. They don't have factories, but I imagine you would contrive that owning next to nothing and teetering on the edge of extreme poverty is preferable to working in a factory. That type of work is what created the 4 Asian Tigers, seems ridiculous to knock it. You're romanticizing primitivism.
tpmoney 4y ago
Lifting out of poverty is also defined in terms of "not starving to death because the winter was too long or cold", "not losing a half a years labor and food because a tornado hit your field", "not having to do manual labor 12 hours a day" and yes "access to material wealth" like indoor plumbing, labor saving devices like washing machines, and the ability to send your children to be educated instead of needing them as additional physical labor when they're old enough. Access to modern medical care and medications. I know some people enjoy farming, and enjoy the rough life. Me personally I'm glad that I don't have to plan months in advance to heat my house for the winter, can obtain literally any food I can imagine within 30 minutes and obtain enough food to feed a family for a month with little more than 40 hours of labor and a 1 hour shipping trip.
- wavefunction 4y ago
  I would point out that under capitalism there have been famines even when there has been plenty of surplus food. A lack of famine either acute nor chronic is surely not a defining characteristic of capitalism.
  - tpmoney 4y ago
    You don't need a famine to starve to death when you're a subsistence farmer, you just need your local area to suffer an unexpected weather event. Too much winter, too much heat, too much rain, too many storms, too many insects. Take your pick of natural disaster. When you and your entire country are subsistence farmers, there's not exactly a lot of surplus or distribution networks to get you replacement food when your local area suffers.
  - lanfeust6 4y ago
    This is pretty uniformly attributed to government policy, not "Capitalism". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)
ch4s3 4y ago
I don’t know… my grandparents were literally sharecroppers and my grandmother said it was ducking miserable. When she was a child most people lost children to disease and still in 1920, sometimes to hunger. But the economy changed and improved and they eventually owned an air conditioned home and two cars. She said the improvement in her life from childhood until I was born were almost unimaginable.
helloworld11 4y ago
Prey tell, how do you live? How would you in practice have your children and other family members live? If you're even moderately well off, very little if nothing stops you from seeking exactly the life you idealize in your comment. Resources for learning all its hard tricks and labors abound (largely due to the very same capitalist-fed internet of commodified information sharing that you disdain). But by all means, decide for hundreds of millions of subsistence farmers that their lives of toil were preferable to the things generations of them strove for despite "having to" consume more.

sudosysgen 4y ago

Unless you consider the Chinese to be a shining capitalism, the proportional of people in poverty hasn't been decreased by capitalism.

refurb 4y ago
It’s doesn’t have to be “shining” capitalism to be free market reforms. It’s pretty clear even “state capitalism” leads to wealth and the elimination of abject poverty.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  That's actually not what it shows. It shows that the free market focused development model which was popular across the entire rest of the world did not, in aggregate, reduce abject poverty. > It’s pretty clear even “state capitalism” leads to wealth and the elimination of abject poverty. What even is the difference between such heavy state capitalism and socialism? Socialist economies existed with various level of market involvement and economic freedom, see Lenin's NEP - was the USSR initially a champion of free market reform?
  - Jensson 4y ago
    You are mixing up democracy and capitalism. All democracies happens to be capitalist today since people quickly vote away communist leaders when they can, but that doesn't mean that democracy and capitalism are the same thing. China can be capitalist without democratic elections, I'd argue that is where they are today and where they have been since the "Chinese miracle" started.
Jensson 4y ago
China is capitalist, they just aren't democratic. They kept the authoritarian regime with sham elections from their communism days but changed everything else into capitalist systems, they are as capitalist as a typical western country today.
- 4y ago

D_Alex 4y ago

>Communism, or any other system, can’t make that same claim. I don't really think communism is a viable economic system, because of, you know, people. However, a couple of points should be made: - Communism has always had to deal with enmity of world's richest and most influential nations (USA and UK in particular). Possibly because communism has had this inbuilt idea that it needs to spread to everywhere, whether they like it or not (kind of like some religions). Could this have been otherwise? I don't know. - Between 1922 and 1962, USSR's economy grew at an average of about 9% real per annum, despite having to deal with the massive trauma of World War 2. Also, income inequality decreased. Population went from ~140 million in poverty to ~240 million living, um, not in poverty. So... it is not quite as simple as you make it out to be.

Jabbles 4y ago
Between 1922 and 1962, USSR's economy grew at an average of about 9% real per annum Growing from a bad start and where you can copy a more developed nation makes this easier. https://bearkunin.medium.com/soviet-union-facts-and-fictions-part-1-the-economy-2a79ff1013a7 https://bearkunin.medium.com/soviet-union-facts-and-fictions...
- D_Alex 4y ago
  >Growing from a bad start and where you can copy a more developed nation makes this easier. True. But you know what really makes economic growth easier? Foreign aid. Also trade. The USSR otoh had to deal with sanctions. https://www.americanforeignrelations.com/E-N/Embargoes-and-Sanctions-Cold-war-sanctions.html https://www.americanforeignrelations.com/E-N/Embargoes-and-S...
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    Yet they weren't alone in the world. They were next to China and other friendlies.
    - D_Alex 4y ago
      China was friendly with the USSR only briefly, like in the 1950s. It was desperately poor at the time, and received a lot of aid from the USSR. I don't know what other friendlies you mean. USSR installed communist/socialist governments in the countries it liberated from German occupation after WW2, but those relationships were... complicated.