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> owners of drafty homes may need to take on the added cost of insulation when installing a heat pump Installing good insulation is also really important even

> owners of drafty homes may need to take on the added cost of insulation when installing a heat pump Installing good insulation is also really important even if you're not using heat pumps! With bad insulation, you're wasting energy no matter what technology you're using.

nemo44x 4y ago
It’s not always possible. For instance old wood double hung sash windows require a weight box to work. Those boxes can’t really be insulated. And there’s a good chance you don’t want to replace the old windows (or possibly can’t due to historic restrictions) because they are a massive part of the homes character. Also insulating an old home (pre-WW2) could begin to introduce moisture issues in the walls that weren’t there the last 100+ years since the leakiness of the home would dry the structure. Last thing you want is for condensation and water vapor to build up in the insulation and then begin to rot the wood. Modern build have vapor barriers and airtight seals. I guess my point is to be careful with old structures without considering things. They were built the way they were because those were the materials we had (old growth wood!) and they were designed to function a certain way.
- Sytten 4y ago
  On the contrary modern houses often rot because of the water barrier. Condensation gets trapped in the wall and it rots really fast. If you insulate your old house from the inside you wont have this issue. I spent the last 3 years remodelling at 1875 house and we opened all the walls to spray urethane foam. It sealed all the cracks between the wood beams but still leaves the exterior untouched to moisture can leave.
  - nemo44x 4y ago
    Yeah any house build in the 70’s, 80’s, or early 90’s might had issues with moisture. Water vapor in particular. Im not sure I’d spend the money (or desire the inconvenience) on a job like that on my old home. I’m not sure I’d make the money back in savings during my time here. But during a gutting, makes sense.
- 4gotunameagain 4y ago
  > For instance old wood double hung sash windows require a weight box to work. Those boxes can’t really be insulated. In Denmark, this was solved by adding a second, modern window on the inside. The outside kept the same look, and it is even more insulating than a single modern window. Is it a bit clunky to have to open two windows ? Sure. But it is better than not having insulated windows, or ruining the appearance of cities.
nostrademons 4y ago
I've heard folks who work in the home energy audit business say that upgrading insulation is usually the most cost-effective thing you can do to lower energy bills. Even better, it's multiplicative with other activities like installing heat pumps or solar, so you can install a much lower capacity system and still hit your energy targets.
- Godel_unicode 4y ago
  And in the United States at least, the IRA contains tax incentives for all of that. The audit, the added insulation, the heat pump, and even more efficient appliances.
- ricardo81 4y ago
  Most definitely. Here in Scotland, 'Home Energy Scotland' offer grants and interest free loans for various energy efficiency and renewable measures, but for the former you must install roof or cavity wall insulation if its recommended on your energy performance certificate for the building - I'd assume purely because it's the most cost effective measures when applicable.
lll-o-lll 4y ago
If you live in a warm climate, I personally think insulation is the worst (excepting roofing). Not because of efficiency, but because you isolate yourself from nature! The traditional Queenslander (look up Bluey if you don’t know what I mean), has so much going for it. It allows airflow through the whole house, a protected outside to sit and be with nature, lizards coming and going, bliss! This hermetically sealed environment that we create for ourselves is bad for us.
- nomel 4y ago
  Insulation can be orthogonal to fresh air. Ventilation energy recovery units [1] exist to help reduce loss from fresh air (and are code for new houses where I am). This has the benefit that you can have more fresh air, for the same heat loss, since the loss will be from the fresh air, rather than through high thermal conductivity through the non-breathable portions of the walls. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation
- darknavi 4y ago
  That can work just fine by intentionally opening windows. Having a "drafty" house is just forcing that 100% of the time (which isn't always wanted). Side note: As a US resident in an area with a ton of mosquitos, I cannot understand why other countries don't heavily use window screens. Lizards a pretty cool, flies and other flying bugs are just annoying and gross.
  - Tade0 4y ago
    In Europe, outside of the south, mosquitoes are pretty tame. After spending some years in Italy I developed a partial immunity to mosquito bites. It lasted for about half a year.
    - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
      > In Europe, outside of the south, mosquitoes are pretty tame. Use to be... native species were mostly a problem during summer and during night time. But since about 15 years ago you had a massive spread of invasive Asian Tiger mosquitos (Aedes albopictus) genomic studies show it was likely introduced via Italy and Albania simultaneously. Those things are nasty, go 24/7, and are just a very different beast in terms of disease vector. There are already established population pockets as far North as Switzerland. Yet another problem that is likely to worsen as temperatures continue to rise.
n1b0m 4y ago
Recent research in England and Wales shows that conservatories, extensions and changing behaviour cancelled out any savings [1] [1] https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/01/rebound-effect-cancels-out-home-insulations-impact-on-gas-use-study https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/01/rebound-...
- sebzim4500 4y ago
  So? It's still better than the person getting the extension but no insulation.
xpe 4y ago
Sure, but don't overlook air sealing. Drafts are caused by air getting through. Most kinds of insulation won't solve this problem.
- phyzome 4y ago
  Yes, true. I kind of lump them together when I think about them, and I think they're often remedied together during retrofits, but they're different issues.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
Also, you can use heat pumps with poor insulation just like you can use traditional heating solutions with poor insulation. It's just that you will need a larger system that wastes more energy. Whether that's still worth the trouble in terms of cost of course depends on your current situation of course. But it's not like heat pumps stop working because of your insulation. They just get more costly to operate. And especially the smaller systems can only deliver so much energy to your house. Basically, if you multiply the maximum output by three, that should be above whatever you are currently using to heat your house during a really cold month. If it's lower, it's not big enough.
mrexroad 4y ago
Don’t forget air sealing while at it!

nemo44x 4y ago

It’s not always possible. For instance old wood double hung sash windows require a weight box to work. Those boxes can’t really be insulated. And there’s a good chance you don’t want to replace the old windows (or possibly can’t due to historic restrictions) because they are a massive part of the homes character. Also insulating an old home (pre-WW2) could begin to introduce moisture issues in the walls that weren’t there the last 100+ years since the leakiness of the home would dry the structure. Last thing you want is for condensation and water vapor to build up in the insulation and then begin to rot the wood. Modern build have vapor barriers and airtight seals. I guess my point is to be careful with old structures without considering things. They were built the way they were because those were the materials we had (old growth wood!) and they were designed to function a certain way.

Sytten 4y ago
On the contrary modern houses often rot because of the water barrier. Condensation gets trapped in the wall and it rots really fast. If you insulate your old house from the inside you wont have this issue. I spent the last 3 years remodelling at 1875 house and we opened all the walls to spray urethane foam. It sealed all the cracks between the wood beams but still leaves the exterior untouched to moisture can leave.
- nemo44x 4y ago
  Yeah any house build in the 70’s, 80’s, or early 90’s might had issues with moisture. Water vapor in particular. Im not sure I’d spend the money (or desire the inconvenience) on a job like that on my old home. I’m not sure I’d make the money back in savings during my time here. But during a gutting, makes sense.
4gotunameagain 4y ago
> For instance old wood double hung sash windows require a weight box to work. Those boxes can’t really be insulated. In Denmark, this was solved by adding a second, modern window on the inside. The outside kept the same look, and it is even more insulating than a single modern window. Is it a bit clunky to have to open two windows ? Sure. But it is better than not having insulated windows, or ruining the appearance of cities.

nostrademons 4y ago

I've heard folks who work in the home energy audit business say that upgrading insulation is usually the most cost-effective thing you can do to lower energy bills. Even better, it's multiplicative with other activities like installing heat pumps or solar, so you can install a much lower capacity system and still hit your energy targets.

Godel_unicode 4y ago
And in the United States at least, the IRA contains tax incentives for all of that. The audit, the added insulation, the heat pump, and even more efficient appliances.
ricardo81 4y ago
Most definitely. Here in Scotland, 'Home Energy Scotland' offer grants and interest free loans for various energy efficiency and renewable measures, but for the former you must install roof or cavity wall insulation if its recommended on your energy performance certificate for the building - I'd assume purely because it's the most cost effective measures when applicable.

lll-o-lll 4y ago

If you live in a warm climate, I personally think insulation is the worst (excepting roofing). Not because of efficiency, but because you isolate yourself from nature! The traditional Queenslander (look up Bluey if you don’t know what I mean), has so much going for it. It allows airflow through the whole house, a protected outside to sit and be with nature, lizards coming and going, bliss! This hermetically sealed environment that we create for ourselves is bad for us.

nomel 4y ago
Insulation can be orthogonal to fresh air. Ventilation energy recovery units [1] exist to help reduce loss from fresh air (and are code for new houses where I am). This has the benefit that you can have more fresh air, for the same heat loss, since the loss will be from the fresh air, rather than through high thermal conductivity through the non-breathable portions of the walls. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_recovery_ventilation
darknavi 4y ago
That can work just fine by intentionally opening windows. Having a "drafty" house is just forcing that 100% of the time (which isn't always wanted). Side note: As a US resident in an area with a ton of mosquitos, I cannot understand why other countries don't heavily use window screens. Lizards a pretty cool, flies and other flying bugs are just annoying and gross.
- Tade0 4y ago
  In Europe, outside of the south, mosquitoes are pretty tame. After spending some years in Italy I developed a partial immunity to mosquito bites. It lasted for about half a year.
  - DoingIsLearning 4y ago
    > In Europe, outside of the south, mosquitoes are pretty tame. Use to be... native species were mostly a problem during summer and during night time. But since about 15 years ago you had a massive spread of invasive Asian Tiger mosquitos (Aedes albopictus) genomic studies show it was likely introduced via Italy and Albania simultaneously. Those things are nasty, go 24/7, and are just a very different beast in terms of disease vector. There are already established population pockets as far North as Switzerland. Yet another problem that is likely to worsen as temperatures continue to rise.

n1b0m 4y ago

Recent research in England and Wales shows that conservatories, extensions and changing behaviour cancelled out any savings [1] [1] https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/01/rebound-effect-cancels-out-home-insulations-impact-on-gas-use-study https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/01/rebound-...

sebzim4500 4y ago
So? It's still better than the person getting the extension but no insulation.

xpe 4y ago

Sure, but don't overlook air sealing. Drafts are caused by air getting through. Most kinds of insulation won't solve this problem.

phyzome 4y ago
Yes, true. I kind of lump them together when I think about them, and I think they're often remedied together during retrofits, but they're different issues.

jillesvangurp 4y ago

Also, you can use heat pumps with poor insulation just like you can use traditional heating solutions with poor insulation. It's just that you will need a larger system that wastes more energy. Whether that's still worth the trouble in terms of cost of course depends on your current situation of course. But it's not like heat pumps stop working because of your insulation. They just get more costly to operate. And especially the smaller systems can only deliver so much energy to your house. Basically, if you multiply the maximum output by three, that should be above whatever you are currently using to heat your house during a really cold month. If it's lower, it's not big enough.

mrexroad 4y ago

Don’t forget air sealing while at it!