8 ms·

ADHD traits more reliably predict mental health issues than autistic traits

64 points by ycombinete 4y ago

wageslv 4y ago
I thought that Joe Rogan told us that ADHD was made up, because dude that went to medical school had an oppinion?
ycombinete 4y ago
Apologies for the sloppy editorialising of the title. The title of the paper is too long for HN. Full title is: “Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder traits are a more important predictor of internalising problems than autistic traits”.
- tysam_and 4y ago
  This is a significantly different implication by far, to the point that the two statements do not even say (or imply the same thing). The symptoms of anxiety and depression are indeed mental health issues, but changing it to the broader category changes the message enough to be a False/unproven statement. @dang, could we enlist your help in title-smithing for accuracy? Something along the lines of "ADHD traits a more reliable indicator of depression/anxiety vs ASD" or the like.
- chrsig 4y ago
  it's quite a wordy title! "internalizing problems" seems like it's notably different than "mental health issues"
Quequau 4y ago
Apparently, it is not uncommon to misdiagnose autistic people as having ADHD. So I wonder what role that might play here.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  Well, that's also a technicality. The DSM-V does not recognize comorbidity of ASD and ADHD - if you have ASD you can't have ADHD. It might just be that the DSM-V is wrong and that those people have both ASD and ADHD
  - astine 4y ago
    The DSM V does recognize comorbidity of ASD and ADHD and allows for simultaneous diagnosis. You might be thinking of the DSM IV which didn't.
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      You're correct, my bad for the typo. In any case that does partially explain the issue.
  - theGnuMe 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - hgsgm 4y ago
    This is largely taxonomy. Both ADHD and ASD are very loose diagnoses, not specific testable measurements. Response to medication can differentiate to some extent, but the label doesn't really mean anything when you consider both diagnosis are based on observing symptoms/presentations, not predicting symptoms/presentations.
  - kderbyma 4y ago
    it's definitely wrong. The DSM V was a big step backwards and it was not great beforehand. it essentially a diagnosis for whatever you want lol
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >The DSM-V does not recognize comorbidity of ASD and ADHD - if you have ASD you can't have ADHD. That's wrong. >if you have ASD you can't have ADHD Not only you can, but it's a very common diagnosis.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Khelavaster 4y ago
[flagged]
- tysam_and 4y ago
  I could put some caesar dressing on this and enjoy it, but I am unsure as to the relevance to the article at hand. Could you please clarify the point you are trying to make here?
  - BMc2020 4y ago
    psst...comedy
    - tysam_and 4y ago
      Would this be a commentary on some of the technical nature of the article? It's a rather high level paper, and seems to be part of the main fodder for Hacker News.
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  Thank you for your interest in science!
jesuscript 4y ago
I see we're getting more granular in categorizing impulsiveness, which is the common trait in criminal behavior, anger issues, recklessness/thrill-seeking, addiction, and lack of attention. When you have issues with impulse control, you will have mental and real world issues, along with residual issues from the real-world consequences (compounding mental state). I wonder why impulsivity doesn't get as much attention, no pun intended.
- yunohn 4y ago
  I’m confused why you think ADHD and ASD boil down to “impulsiveness”?
  - chrsig 4y ago
    It's a major component of ADHD. Not the only component. It is probably the most detrimental component to life stability though. I think it's fair to put it in the spotlight.
    - yunohn 4y ago
      This study is about ADHD/ASD and its relation to internalising problems. Impulse control can be an aspect of the disorders, but that isn’t the topic at hand; nor does it make sense to directly compare to “criminal behavior” and other negative traits randomly.
      - theGnuMe 4y ago
        Commenters on HN like to push their own agendas.
        jesuscript 4y ago
        So do research studies.
        chrsig 4y ago
        ...what is the agenda being pushed here?
steve_adams_86 4y ago
> Before these potential suggestions could be translated into practice, there is a need to investigate the mechanisms underlying our results. While the specific neurocognitive processes that underpin our findings are unknown, a possible explanation for this pattern of results may be the differential executive function difficulties that characterise ASD and ADHD. A systematic review by Craig and colleagues53 revealed that, while both neurodevelopmental conditions are associated with executive dysfunction, autistic individuals tend to have more problems with cognitive flexibility and planning, while those with ADHD have more response inhibition difficulties [see also54]. Crucially, such response inhibition problems have also been documented in depression and anxiety. We therefore speculate that response inhibition difficulties, which appear to be a cognitive feature of ADHD, may also potentially underpin the stronger association between ADHD traits and internalising problems. Totally anecdotal, but what might help with ASD is some sense that you’re different from other people, and other people sensing that you’re different. On one hand that is innately difficult, but it’s somewhat more concrete and tangible than with ADHD. You at least get a sense of what you’re working with. On the other hand, ADHD can trick you into thinking you’re neurotypical. You end up living decades feeling like a complete fraud. You have to internalise debilitating shame and anxiety for failing to be normal. You’re 25 and still can’t remember to pay your bills on time, or 35 and still drive your car until it runs out of fuel, 45 and can’t hold a job, 55 and can’t remember your family’s birthdays (you know the dates, but it comes and goes), etc. You constantly fail on basic tasks and disappoint everyone around you. People don’t think you’re forgetful or distractible; they think you’re cold or aloof, irresponsible or careless, and so on. Everyone assumes you’re just a regular person who opts to perform poorly. You begin to think it must be true. I’m not saying ASD is easier. I think ADHD simply has an insidious nature that causes one to try to hide themselves even more so, sabotaging themselves in ways that make the condition even worse. My experience with ASD is that you can be a target, people are unfair and unkind to you, but unless you’re exceptional at masking or you’re closer to the neurotypical side of the spectrum, people seem to stop expecting you to be “normal”. They won’t necessarily penalize you for being atypical. People recognize that you need assistance. They might not like it, but you’re less likely to be scolded for going off script. With ADHD, your life is spent doing that dance, and everyone expects you to stay on script. If they stop expecting you to, then you’ve really fucked up — at least if you were on the spectrum you’d have an excuse, though. Again, not saying ASD is easy. My sister is fairly debilitated by it and I’m not so much, and while my ADHD has caused significant struggles it has still allowed me a more comfortable life and career than she has. It just seems that you’re more likely to be overtly discriminated for having ADHD, I guess. Feel free to tell me how wrong I am, how this doesn’t reflect your experience, and so on! I don’t think I’m right, I think I’ve just had this impression over time. I’m curious what others think and what this study brings to mind.

64 points by ycombinete 4y ago

I thought that Joe Rogan told us that ADHD was made up, because dude that went to medical school had an oppinion?

Apologies for the sloppy editorialising of the title. The title of the paper is too long for HN. Full title is: “Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder traits are a more important predictor of internalising problems than autistic traits”.

tysam_and 4y ago
This is a significantly different implication by far, to the point that the two statements do not even say (or imply the same thing). The symptoms of anxiety and depression are indeed mental health issues, but changing it to the broader category changes the message enough to be a False/unproven statement. @dang, could we enlist your help in title-smithing for accuracy? Something along the lines of "ADHD traits a more reliable indicator of depression/anxiety vs ASD" or the like.
chrsig 4y ago
it's quite a wordy title! "internalizing problems" seems like it's notably different than "mental health issues"

Quequau 4y ago

Apparently, it is not uncommon to misdiagnose autistic people as having ADHD. So I wonder what role that might play here.

sudosysgen 4y ago
Well, that's also a technicality. The DSM-V does not recognize comorbidity of ASD and ADHD - if you have ASD you can't have ADHD. It might just be that the DSM-V is wrong and that those people have both ASD and ADHD
- astine 4y ago
  The DSM V does recognize comorbidity of ASD and ADHD and allows for simultaneous diagnosis. You might be thinking of the DSM IV which didn't.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    You're correct, my bad for the typo. In any case that does partially explain the issue.
- theGnuMe 4y ago
  [flagged]
- hgsgm 4y ago
  This is largely taxonomy. Both ADHD and ASD are very loose diagnoses, not specific testable measurements. Response to medication can differentiate to some extent, but the label doesn't really mean anything when you consider both diagnosis are based on observing symptoms/presentations, not predicting symptoms/presentations.
- kderbyma 4y ago
  it's definitely wrong. The DSM V was a big step backwards and it was not great beforehand. it essentially a diagnosis for whatever you want lol
- coldtea 4y ago
  >The DSM-V does not recognize comorbidity of ASD and ADHD - if you have ASD you can't have ADHD. That's wrong. >if you have ASD you can't have ADHD Not only you can, but it's a very common diagnosis.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Khelavaster 4y ago

[flagged]

tysam_and 4y ago
I could put some caesar dressing on this and enjoy it, but I am unsure as to the relevance to the article at hand. Could you please clarify the point you are trying to make here?
- BMc2020 4y ago
  psst...comedy
  - tysam_and 4y ago
    Would this be a commentary on some of the technical nature of the article? It's a rather high level paper, and seems to be part of the main fodder for Hacker News.
steve_adams_86 4y ago
Thank you for your interest in science!

jesuscript 4y ago

I see we're getting more granular in categorizing impulsiveness, which is the common trait in criminal behavior, anger issues, recklessness/thrill-seeking, addiction, and lack of attention. When you have issues with impulse control, you will have mental and real world issues, along with residual issues from the real-world consequences (compounding mental state). I wonder why impulsivity doesn't get as much attention, no pun intended.

yunohn 4y ago
I’m confused why you think ADHD and ASD boil down to “impulsiveness”?
- chrsig 4y ago
  It's a major component of ADHD. Not the only component. It is probably the most detrimental component to life stability though. I think it's fair to put it in the spotlight.
  - yunohn 4y ago
    This study is about ADHD/ASD and its relation to internalising problems. Impulse control can be an aspect of the disorders, but that isn’t the topic at hand; nor does it make sense to directly compare to “criminal behavior” and other negative traits randomly.
    - theGnuMe 4y ago
      Commenters on HN like to push their own agendas.
      - jesuscript 4y ago
        So do research studies.
      - chrsig 4y ago
        ...what is the agenda being pushed here?

steve_adams_86 4y ago

> Before these potential suggestions could be translated into practice, there is a need to investigate the mechanisms underlying our results. While the specific neurocognitive processes that underpin our findings are unknown, a possible explanation for this pattern of results may be the differential executive function difficulties that characterise ASD and ADHD. A systematic review by Craig and colleagues53 revealed that, while both neurodevelopmental conditions are associated with executive dysfunction, autistic individuals tend to have more problems with cognitive flexibility and planning, while those with ADHD have more response inhibition difficulties [see also54]. Crucially, such response inhibition problems have also been documented in depression and anxiety. We therefore speculate that response inhibition difficulties, which appear to be a cognitive feature of ADHD, may also potentially underpin the stronger association between ADHD traits and internalising problems. Totally anecdotal, but what might help with ASD is some sense that you’re different from other people, and other people sensing that you’re different. On one hand that is innately difficult, but it’s somewhat more concrete and tangible than with ADHD. You at least get a sense of what you’re working with. On the other hand, ADHD can trick you into thinking you’re neurotypical. You end up living decades feeling like a complete fraud. You have to internalise debilitating shame and anxiety for failing to be normal. You’re 25 and still can’t remember to pay your bills on time, or 35 and still drive your car until it runs out of fuel, 45 and can’t hold a job, 55 and can’t remember your family’s birthdays (you know the dates, but it comes and goes), etc. You constantly fail on basic tasks and disappoint everyone around you. People don’t think you’re forgetful or distractible; they think you’re cold or aloof, irresponsible or careless, and so on. Everyone assumes you’re just a regular person who opts to perform poorly. You begin to think it must be true. I’m not saying ASD is easier. I think ADHD simply has an insidious nature that causes one to try to hide themselves even more so, sabotaging themselves in ways that make the condition even worse. My experience with ASD is that you can be a target, people are unfair and unkind to you, but unless you’re exceptional at masking or you’re closer to the neurotypical side of the spectrum, people seem to stop expecting you to be “normal”. They won’t necessarily penalize you for being atypical. People recognize that you need assistance. They might not like it, but you’re less likely to be scolded for going off script. With ADHD, your life is spent doing that dance, and everyone expects you to stay on script. If they stop expecting you to, then you’ve really fucked up — at least if you were on the spectrum you’d have an excuse, though. Again, not saying ASD is easy. My sister is fairly debilitated by it and I’m not so much, and while my ADHD has caused significant struggles it has still allowed me a more comfortable life and career than she has. It just seems that you’re more likely to be overtly discriminated for having ADHD, I guess. Feel free to tell me how wrong I am, how this doesn’t reflect your experience, and so on! I don’t think I’m right, I think I’ve just had this impression over time. I’m curious what others think and what this study brings to mind.