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You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have be

You will get a lot of hate for this but I must admit: What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Individuality seems to have been invented and embraced by European and American intelligentsia.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? The Black Death increased labour’s bargaining power right before the Industrial Revolution. It’s a lucky set of quirks that gave Enlightenment-era ideas fertile soil to land on.
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  The end of the Black Death occurred over 400 years before the start of the Industrial Revolution.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > end of the Black Death occurred over 400 years before the start of the Industrial Revolution “Right before” was hyperbole. The population, and in particular, labor effects, were nevertheless persistent. Western labor was anomalously expensive.
    - LAC-Tech 4y ago
      Why would you double down at this point? Just admit you were completely wrong and move on. It's fine, I'm wrong a lot too.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        > Why would you double down at this point? Because the thesis holds [1][2]. It’s far from a controversial theory in medieval and developmental economics. [1] https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=EUoCBAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PP6&dq=info:-XifWcNWh3UJ:scholar.google.com/&ots=panZxP_PcY&sig=oxCWxg56Xr3moAGnfHLlXnnD2x4#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=EUoCBAAAQBAJ&oi=... [2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C51&q=Black+Death+labor&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1673917270805&u=%23p%3DVm-8EOtyoK0J https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C51&q=Bla...
      - rayiner 4y ago
        Why would you think you’ve dunked on him when you’re the one who is wrong? The divergence between Europe and the rest of the world began in the 15th and 16th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence. The divergence became massive during the Industrial Revolution, but it was underway long before that.
        LAC-Tech 4y ago
        Because he said that "The Black Death increased labour’s bargaining power right before the Industrial Revolution." Come on, that's hilariously wrong, and no attempt to walk it back makes it less funny. Of course, I'm just a bit on edge because I'm writing this post right after the 30 years war has started.
starwind 4y ago
Certainly a respect for the individual played a role. Thomas Hobbes argued for a strong monarch specifically to protect their subjects and their subjects’ property. Other philosophers like John Lock, David Hume, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill would expand on this and build the classically liberal tradition. But we also can’t underestimate the impact of: 1) abundant energy sources—initially wood and then coal that could power machinery. 2) a scientific tradition with engineering applications in mind. 3) the Black Plague that let people just drop their scythes and move to the city to become tradesmen and earn a better living. 4) the Common Law tradition placing property rights and the right to contract on near-sacred grounds. 5) Access to abundant fishing off the coast of what became North America. I don't think there's any one thing we can point to explain the rise of West, it's a confluence of factors that I'm very grateful happened before I was born
- 908B64B197 4y ago
  6) There are several similar but different societies that shared a common ancestry (with the Romans and Greeks) This created an intense competition where the best ideas would survive. As trade grew so did the exchange of ideas in Europe. Different regimes had different views on intellectuals. Famously, Da Vinci and Voltaire had multiple patrons through their lives.
  - johnchristopher 4y ago
    > This created an intense competition where the best ideas would survive. Claiming they are best because they survive is survivorship bias.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > Claiming they are best because they survive is survivorship bias No, it’s not. Only measuring survivors is survivorship bias.
      - johnchristopher 4y ago
CyanBird 4y ago
>What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? University level international relations courses generally start on the 30years war, I feel it is appropriate for that to be considered "the rough start" of "honest to god modernity" yeah
rayiner 4y ago
Western individualism, like nearly every other aspect of western culture, has its roots in Christianity. Europe had already diverged long before the “intelligentsia” you’re talking about.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jdminhbg 4y ago
> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Joseph Henrich says it’s the medieval church’s prohibition on cousin marriage, which dissolved the strong kinship bonds that dominate the rest of the world. He has a book on the subject called The WEIRDest People In The World which is good.
- WeylandYutani 4y ago
  Wow sounds interesting! Thanks for the recommendation.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? The Black Death increased labour’s bargaining power right before the Industrial Revolution. It’s a lucky set of quirks that gave Enlightenment-era ideas fertile soil to land on.

LAC-Tech 4y ago
The end of the Black Death occurred over 400 years before the start of the Industrial Revolution.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > end of the Black Death occurred over 400 years before the start of the Industrial Revolution “Right before” was hyperbole. The population, and in particular, labor effects, were nevertheless persistent. Western labor was anomalously expensive.
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    Why would you double down at this point? Just admit you were completely wrong and move on. It's fine, I'm wrong a lot too.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > Why would you double down at this point? Because the thesis holds [1][2]. It’s far from a controversial theory in medieval and developmental economics. [1] https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=EUoCBAAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PP6&dq=info:-XifWcNWh3UJ:scholar.google.com/&ots=panZxP_PcY&sig=oxCWxg56Xr3moAGnfHLlXnnD2x4#v=onepage&q&f=false https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=EUoCBAAAQBAJ&oi=... [2] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C51&q=Black+Death+labor&btnG=#d=gs_qabs&t=1673917270805&u=%23p%3DVm-8EOtyoK0J https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C51&q=Bla...
    - rayiner 4y ago
      Why would you think you’ve dunked on him when you’re the one who is wrong? The divergence between Europe and the rest of the world began in the 15th and 16th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Divergence. The divergence became massive during the Industrial Revolution, but it was underway long before that.
      - LAC-Tech 4y ago
        Because he said that "The Black Death increased labour’s bargaining power right before the Industrial Revolution." Come on, that's hilariously wrong, and no attempt to walk it back makes it less funny. Of course, I'm just a bit on edge because I'm writing this post right after the 30 years war has started.

starwind 4y ago

Certainly a respect for the individual played a role. Thomas Hobbes argued for a strong monarch specifically to protect their subjects and their subjects’ property. Other philosophers like John Lock, David Hume, Adam Smith, and John Stuart Mill would expand on this and build the classically liberal tradition. But we also can’t underestimate the impact of: 1) abundant energy sources—initially wood and then coal that could power machinery. 2) a scientific tradition with engineering applications in mind. 3) the Black Plague that let people just drop their scythes and move to the city to become tradesmen and earn a better living. 4) the Common Law tradition placing property rights and the right to contract on near-sacred grounds. 5) Access to abundant fishing off the coast of what became North America. I don't think there's any one thing we can point to explain the rise of West, it's a confluence of factors that I'm very grateful happened before I was born

908B64B197 4y ago
6) There are several similar but different societies that shared a common ancestry (with the Romans and Greeks) This created an intense competition where the best ideas would survive. As trade grew so did the exchange of ideas in Europe. Different regimes had different views on intellectuals. Famously, Da Vinci and Voltaire had multiple patrons through their lives.
- johnchristopher 4y ago
  > This created an intense competition where the best ideas would survive. Claiming they are best because they survive is survivorship bias.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > Claiming they are best because they survive is survivorship bias No, it’s not. Only measuring survivors is survivorship bias.
    - johnchristopher 4y ago

CyanBird 4y ago

>What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? University level international relations courses generally start on the 30years war, I feel it is appropriate for that to be considered "the rough start" of "honest to god modernity" yeah

rayiner 4y ago

Western individualism, like nearly every other aspect of western culture, has its roots in Christianity. Europe had already diverged long before the “intelligentsia” you’re talking about.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jdminhbg 4y ago

> What made Western Europe diverge from places like Russia or Saudi Arabia? Joseph Henrich says it’s the medieval church’s prohibition on cousin marriage, which dissolved the strong kinship bonds that dominate the rest of the world. He has a book on the subject called The WEIRDest People In The World which is good.

WeylandYutani 4y ago
Wow sounds interesting! Thanks for the recommendation.