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"One person" Like I said I've been in the islamic world for a decade. I've studied Arabic/Turkish music in Iran, Egypt, Turkiye, Azerbaijan, Lebanon, Jordan an
by blhblah12345 4y ago
"One person"
Like I said I've been in the islamic world for a decade. I've studied Arabic/Turkish music in Iran, Egypt, Turkiye, Azerbaijan, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel. It's not like "I met one muslim". I have spent about 20 hours per week for the past decade teaching Syrian and Yemeni refugees in Istanbul and Ankara.
Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? As far as I can tell this only existed for the brief period from when the Turkish Cumhuriyet was established until Ataturk drank himself to death. Most are kingdoms run by rich tribal warlords.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago> Just one? Honest question, how does Jordan fare in democracy?
- blhblah12345 4y agoYou should ask the king that question.
- hef19898 4y agoFrom my limited experuence, Jordan seems to be the closest example of a democrcy in the Arab world I know. Sure, it is by no means democratic when compared to Western democracies. But they do not use totalitarian and draconian measures to surpress the population on a regular basis. Nor is Jordan an outright relogiously motivated chauvinist regime. And compared to other, more democratic nations like Tunesia or Marocco, Jordan is extremely stable. Which is a value in itself. But this is just my impression as an outsider.
- throwaway09223 4y agoPlenty of democratic countries have monarchs. Most of Europe still has monarchs, because they're constitutional monarchies -- which is a fairly common democratic form of government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy What matters is not whether there is a king, but the details of how the specific powers are allocated between the different parts of government. Sweden is also a constitutional monarchy, with a king.
- ithkuil 4y agoTwo of European monarchies are also peculiar in that they are elective: the Vatican and Andorra. (The Vatican is also technically a theocracy)
- __derek__ 4y ago> Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? Indonesia and Malaysia, for two.
- blhblah12345 4y ago[flagged]
- __derek__ 4y agoIf you can go much further, that would be appreciated because this comment was not substantive or constructive.
- blhblah12345 4y agoHow was this not substantive? I gave you a very solid example of how in one large province of Indonesia, democracy and the rule of law were entirely removed and put in the hand of islamic "leaders".
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- IAmGraydon 4y agoIndonesia is not an Islamic nation even though a majority of its population is Islamic and there is some influence of Islam in their politics. Malaysia is, as you stated, an Islamic nation. It is not secular, however, as they consider Islam to be their official religion.
- blhblah12345 4y agoHow is Indonesia not an Islamic nation when now several of its provinces are legally ruled by shariah law interpreted by mullahs, not by representatives or leaders elected by the people, and when the government makes federal (parliamentary?) laws enforcing various muslim beliefs and laws?
- NikolaNovak 4y agoI get your point but isn't there a built-in inconsistency in term "Islamic secular state"? I. E. Would a secular state by definition not be Islamic (or Christian etc)? Or do you mean a state with predominantly Islamic population that is democratic and secular?
- throwaway09223 4y agoWithout getting into the semantics it's valuable to note that Wikipedia has a list of religious democracies, both historic and contemporary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_democracy Note that several of these are Islamic.
- za3faran 4y agoYou're correct that Western style democracy and secularism contradict Islam. We as Muslims don't look at those notions as measures of prosperity.
- jacooper 4y agoAs if that is by choice? Not foreign interference?, be it from the east or other Arab countries.
- comte7092 4y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world#Secular_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world#Secular_states
- za3faran 4y agoAnd I've lived there for longer, and I speak the language and I continue to know people and travel there frequently. My points still hold. > Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Western style democracy and secularism are contradictory with Islam. To us, it is not a measure of success or prosperity. On a side note, there aren't really any fully Islamic states today - practically all of them have remnants (or more active engagement) of Western colonization and influence. I'm sure you're aware of how things have been after the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate.