3 ms·

Related to being in attendance at the event. The local KKK branch intending to smuggle tiki torches and presumably their charming incantations to the annual Div

Related to being in attendance at the event. The local KKK branch intending to smuggle tiki torches and presumably their charming incantations to the annual Diversity and Inclusion gala. (Presumably that would be criminal due to the contents of their slogans, though in America I'm not sure anything said or chanted qualifies as hate crime, like it would in my country). I mean, they purchased tickets, so let 'em in and let 'em have at it, no? Edit: Okay, I'll give a less ridiculous example, one that involves nuisance but not criminality. I come from Ukraine; Alex Ovechkin is a Putin fanboy who refuses to condemn the invasion and genocide of my erstwhile compatriots. If I form a group of people who attend hockey games to heckle and accuse Ovechkin of being a genocide supporter, can MSG kick out a new member of my organization after learning of their joining? They won't sell me a ticket, they know I cause trouble. But he just joined, bought a ticket, then their security team got the updated the Facebook group member list.

josephcsible 4y ago
If someone does something bad after buying the ticket, then banning them might indeed be okay (depending on the details, of course). My point is that once you hand over legitimately purchased tickets to people, you shouldn't be able to deny them entry because of anything that happened prior to the purchase.
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  >once you hand over legitimately purchased tickets to people, you shouldn't be able to deny them entry because of anything that happened prior to the purchase. Even if something happened prior to the purchase and I learn about it after the purchase? That seems oddly arbitrary.
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    Flip the scenario around: you buy tickets to a sporting event. A few days later, shortly before the game, you learn that one of the players is a Putin fanboy and decide you don't want to support him. Can you make MSG take back your ticket and give you a refund?
    - kspacewalk2 4y ago
      Maybe if I can successfully raise a stink on Twitter. Generally, no. Having thought of how this scenario works backwards, I discovered that I assumed the kicked out lawyers were issued a refund, but I have no evidence of it. If not, they ought to demand it.
      - josephcsible 4y ago
        > Having thought of how this scenario works backwards, I discovered that I assumed the kicked out lawyers were issued a refund, but I have no evidence of it. If not, they ought to demand it. The point of my example is that even if the victims were issued a refund, what MSG did is still wrong. Buyers don't get to unilaterally unwind ticket sales. Why should MSG get to do so?
        kspacewalk2 4y ago
        Because they're the ones providing the service. As long as they don't keep the money, and as long as they're not breaking the anti-discrimination laws, I fail to see the problem.
        josephcsible 4y ago
        So if you book a flight and hotel room to go see an event on the other side of the planet, when you get there, MSG can turn you away and tell you "here's your $100 ticket price back, but you're out the $3000 you spent to get here to see this"?
        kspacewalk2 4y ago
        Whatever reason they have to refund your ticket (say the band didn't show up), they'll always just refund your ticket, not any other expenses. If you want those refunded, you get travel insurance or something. Why should it be any different here?
filoleg 4y ago
> If I form a group of people who attend hockey games to heckle and accuse Ovechkin of being a genocide supporter, can MSG kick out a new member of my organization after learning of their joining? In my opinion of how it should reasonably work - MSG should be in their right to kick them out, but only after that person who joined your group gets caught disrupting the game by heckling and accusing Ovechkin. Just like any other person who gets caught doing the same. Only associating with you should never be a problem on its own (unless we are talking of group memberships that are criminal on their own, e.g., organized crime gangs).
- kspacewalk2 4y ago
  My Ovechkin heckling club isn't an organized crime gang, but it is an organized heckling gang of sorts. Do you propose to draw the line at criminality? Before that gavel hits the wooden saucer-like thingy though, criminality is always alleged, so we're on iffy ground here. Bringing it back to unpopular-person doing objectionable-thing that's not criminal, against popular-people, say something which will generate a lot of Twitter hullabaloo... Why should I not be able to prevent it? A far-right group heckles a drag queen reading event for children at a library, calling them "groomers" and generating shit maelstroms online and offline (I'd even say for good reason). I know this will happen, but still I must allow them entry to do the deed and (further?) traumatize 8 year olds before booting them out? Fuck that, I see a Facebook photo of a douchebag in that yellow rooster t-shirt or however these far-right losers choose to visually identify themselves these days, then I find out he's bought a ticket, then I deny him entry.
  - filoleg 4y ago
    > My Ovechkin heckling club isn't an organized crime gang, but it is an organized heckling gang of sorts. Do you propose to draw the line at criminality? I propose to draw the line at organized crime affiliation when it comes to pre-emptively denying someone who hasn't done anything wrong at a big public event like that yet, yes. Worst case, you let them in, they get kicked out after they start heckling, they are banned from attending future events of that nature by the venue. Simple as that. Someone getting a chance to heckle at a massive stadium event for a minute before they get banned is not some massive risk with grave consequences. > A far-right group heckles a drag queen reading event for children at a library, calling them "groomers" and generating shit maelstroms online and offline (I'd even say for good reason). I know this will happen, but still I must allow them entry to do the deed and (further?) traumatize 8 year olds before booting them out? To address your specific scenario, no, you don't need to let them in. You are hosting your own small event at a library that doesn't require purchasing tickets, you can boot whoever you want however you want. Esp since the event is for children, I would have no qualms about any adult (who isn't a parent of one of the children attending the event or one of the organizers) just being blanket-denied entry. I.e., using an allow-list instead of a deny-list.

josephcsible 4y ago

If someone does something bad after buying the ticket, then banning them might indeed be okay (depending on the details, of course). My point is that once you hand over legitimately purchased tickets to people, you shouldn't be able to deny them entry because of anything that happened prior to the purchase.

kspacewalk2 4y ago
>once you hand over legitimately purchased tickets to people, you shouldn't be able to deny them entry because of anything that happened prior to the purchase. Even if something happened prior to the purchase and I learn about it after the purchase? That seems oddly arbitrary.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  Flip the scenario around: you buy tickets to a sporting event. A few days later, shortly before the game, you learn that one of the players is a Putin fanboy and decide you don't want to support him. Can you make MSG take back your ticket and give you a refund?
  - kspacewalk2 4y ago
    Maybe if I can successfully raise a stink on Twitter. Generally, no. Having thought of how this scenario works backwards, I discovered that I assumed the kicked out lawyers were issued a refund, but I have no evidence of it. If not, they ought to demand it.
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      > Having thought of how this scenario works backwards, I discovered that I assumed the kicked out lawyers were issued a refund, but I have no evidence of it. If not, they ought to demand it. The point of my example is that even if the victims were issued a refund, what MSG did is still wrong. Buyers don't get to unilaterally unwind ticket sales. Why should MSG get to do so?
      - kspacewalk2 4y ago
        Because they're the ones providing the service. As long as they don't keep the money, and as long as they're not breaking the anti-discrimination laws, I fail to see the problem.
        josephcsible 4y ago
        So if you book a flight and hotel room to go see an event on the other side of the planet, when you get there, MSG can turn you away and tell you "here's your $100 ticket price back, but you're out the $3000 you spent to get here to see this"?
        kspacewalk2 4y ago
        Whatever reason they have to refund your ticket (say the band didn't show up), they'll always just refund your ticket, not any other expenses. If you want those refunded, you get travel insurance or something. Why should it be any different here?

filoleg 4y ago

> If I form a group of people who attend hockey games to heckle and accuse Ovechkin of being a genocide supporter, can MSG kick out a new member of my organization after learning of their joining? In my opinion of how it should reasonably work - MSG should be in their right to kick them out, but only after that person who joined your group gets caught disrupting the game by heckling and accusing Ovechkin. Just like any other person who gets caught doing the same. Only associating with you should never be a problem on its own (unless we are talking of group memberships that are criminal on their own, e.g., organized crime gangs).

kspacewalk2 4y ago
My Ovechkin heckling club isn't an organized crime gang, but it is an organized heckling gang of sorts. Do you propose to draw the line at criminality? Before that gavel hits the wooden saucer-like thingy though, criminality is always alleged, so we're on iffy ground here. Bringing it back to unpopular-person doing objectionable-thing that's not criminal, against popular-people, say something which will generate a lot of Twitter hullabaloo... Why should I not be able to prevent it? A far-right group heckles a drag queen reading event for children at a library, calling them "groomers" and generating shit maelstroms online and offline (I'd even say for good reason). I know this will happen, but still I must allow them entry to do the deed and (further?) traumatize 8 year olds before booting them out? Fuck that, I see a Facebook photo of a douchebag in that yellow rooster t-shirt or however these far-right losers choose to visually identify themselves these days, then I find out he's bought a ticket, then I deny him entry.
- filoleg 4y ago
  > My Ovechkin heckling club isn't an organized crime gang, but it is an organized heckling gang of sorts. Do you propose to draw the line at criminality? I propose to draw the line at organized crime affiliation when it comes to pre-emptively denying someone who hasn't done anything wrong at a big public event like that yet, yes. Worst case, you let them in, they get kicked out after they start heckling, they are banned from attending future events of that nature by the venue. Simple as that. Someone getting a chance to heckle at a massive stadium event for a minute before they get banned is not some massive risk with grave consequences. > A far-right group heckles a drag queen reading event for children at a library, calling them "groomers" and generating shit maelstroms online and offline (I'd even say for good reason). I know this will happen, but still I must allow them entry to do the deed and (further?) traumatize 8 year olds before booting them out? To address your specific scenario, no, you don't need to let them in. You are hosting your own small event at a library that doesn't require purchasing tickets, you can boot whoever you want however you want. Esp since the event is for children, I would have no qualms about any adult (who isn't a parent of one of the children attending the event or one of the organizers) just being blanket-denied entry. I.e., using an allow-list instead of a deny-list.