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Wikipedia editors serving long sentences in Saudi Arabia since 2020

177 points by akolbe 4y ago

eatbitseveryday 4y ago
Related: "Saudi prosecutors seek death penalty for academic over social media use" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34394354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34394354
- akolbe 4y ago
  Also, from earlier on: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/14/saudi-arabia-human-rights-mbs-biden/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/14/saudi-ara... This piece by the Washington Post Editorial Board published in September 2022 actually mentioned one of the two Wikipedians but described him merely as "a writer, translator and computer programmer" – so the Wikipedia connection wasn't clear.
blhblah12345 4y ago
[flagged]
- richbell 4y ago
  I don't really see what this has to do with the submission. Furthermore, I think it's a bit of a strawman to say that people who think "The West" is evil (usually in reference to the USA's long history of spying on and overthrowing countries) wouldn't also think Saudi Arabia is evil.
- za3faran 4y ago
  > The things that keep the west alive are abstract, unfathomable concepts to the Ummah. As a Muslim, this is so incorrect to the point of almost absurdity. Just because you have encountered one person who appeared to you that he did not understand or comprehend a certain topic you were explaining, does not mean that the rest of the Muslims are the same. I can point you to many many youtube channels (just as an example) on Muslim scholars, sociologists, and more living both in the Middle East and in the West who have been discussing very nuanced sociopolitical topics and how they relate to our religion.
  - blhblah12345 4y ago
    "One person" Like I said I've been in the islamic world for a decade. I've studied Arabic/Turkish music in Iran, Egypt, Turkiye, Azerbaijan, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel. It's not like "I met one muslim". I have spent about 20 hours per week for the past decade teaching Syrian and Yemeni refugees in Istanbul and Ankara. Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? As far as I can tell this only existed for the brief period from when the Turkish Cumhuriyet was established until Ataturk drank himself to death. Most are kingdoms run by rich tribal warlords.
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      > Just one? Honest question, how does Jordan fare in democracy?
      - blhblah12345 4y ago
        You should ask the king that question.
        hef19898 4y ago
        From my limited experuence, Jordan seems to be the closest example of a democrcy in the Arab world I know. Sure, it is by no means democratic when compared to Western democracies. But they do not use totalitarian and draconian measures to surpress the population on a regular basis. Nor is Jordan an outright relogiously motivated chauvinist regime. And compared to other, more democratic nations like Tunesia or Marocco, Jordan is extremely stable. Which is a value in itself. But this is just my impression as an outsider.
        throwaway09223 4y ago
        Plenty of democratic countries have monarchs. Most of Europe still has monarchs, because they're constitutional monarchies -- which is a fairly common democratic form of government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy What matters is not whether there is a king, but the details of how the specific powers are allocated between the different parts of government. Sweden is also a constitutional monarchy, with a king.
- rayiner 4y ago
  > His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state of nature, you are free to say whatever you want, and the people around you are free to beat you to death for it. It’s only when you have a civilized society that the concept of rights makes sense. Roughly speaking “rights” are simply rules society agrees upon for how individuals relate to each other (e.g. private property) or how society as a whole relates to the individual (e.g. free speech). There’s nothing inherent about any arbitrarily selected set of “rights.”
  - thinking4real 4y ago
    It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had. Hubris abound.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had. This is a pretty bullshit reading of the comment you replied to, which was about the nature of "rights" as a social agreement rather than something natural.
      - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
        To add to your comment, nobody says OP’s experience is incorrect. Instead, the comment thinking4real takes reflexive offence to seeks to explain it, not demean it.
      - andrewflnr 4y ago
        Said comment seized on one phrase, jumped to a conclusion about what the top-level's friend's actual misunderstanding was, and chastized them for not agreeing with their guess. We don't know if the top-level commenter's judgment is correct, but the rest of us certainly don't have enough evidence to be so confident they're wrong.
- akolbe 4y ago
  You're right, in a way, to call it brainwashing. But seen from another perspective, people living under authoritarian regimes simply think practically. They are aware of the acute danger to themselves and their families – all the more so as they can't just up sticks and go to live in San Francisco if they don't like it any more. The freedom of speech that only exists elsewhere might just as well not exist, and they're often tied to their country. One particularly discouraging aspect of these sentences is that they often include a long travel ban, to start upon release from prison. For refugees I'd guess it takes a long time for them to feel safe and for the established patterns of thought to "thaw".
  - NikolaNovak 4y ago
    When I was a kid, and pestering e.g. My dad where was mom (who might be shopping or in Washroom or whatever :), sometimes in exasperation he'd reply "she in California". It was the functional equivalent of dark side of moon, or even Narnia - place you've heard of but might well not exist. 20 years later, in Canada, my job sent me to California for training. When I heard, surprisingly to myself, I hyperventilated and got an asthma attack - my adult Canadian self and the 6 year old from somewhere else colliding in their expectations and worldview reality. Which is to say that I think you have a profound point in that somebody may be "aware" on intellectual level of different places, cultures, laws etc; and it still not feel very real or be at all relevant on practical level.
- rockinghigh 4y ago
  It sounds like you're generalizing from a couple of conversations. The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms. The idea that citizens in Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria are "intellectually incapable of understanding" the idea of freedom of speech is insulting.
  - nickff 4y ago
    "Unfathomable" is very different from "intellectually incapable of understanding". You're arguing against a straw-man of your own making.
    - rockinghigh 4y ago
      I simply quoted the original commenter who used these words.
  - pydry 4y ago
    >The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms. I'm not sure they were. They kicked off when food prices spiked, and proximate causes were corruption and unemployment. Officially endorsed foreign protests against government we don't particularly like are always described as being about freedom in the west for reasons that aren't always good. >The idea that citizens in Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria are "intellectually incapable of understanding" the idea of freedom of speech is insulting. Yes, absolutely it is.
    - elashri 4y ago
      As an Egyptian who took part of the arab spring, I really laughed on your argument (sorry no insult). But as simple as argument it is, It doesn't hold because you see the Egyptian currency is no almost 6x less with 10x or more on average for food prices and there is no movement to overthrow the current regime. And for corruption and unemployment, they are much worse now than before. Then more than half the country are under poverty line, most of middle class became lower class in a couple of years. There were no particular reason why the uprising happened, of course some people joined because of that. But this wasn't my reason (or majority of people I know).
- AdrianB1 4y ago
  My parents lived in Jordan (as expats) for over 30 years. Back in 1980, Jordan was a very modern country and had great rulers, my father was in good relations with one of the king's sons (I don't remember which one) and he met the king several times, he was speaking highly about them and he considered Jordan one of the most modern and free Muslim countries. At the same time, rights and freedoms are limited in most of the world, not just in the Muslim countries. There is no first amendment anywhere outside USA, there is no second anywhere else, even in Europe the rights and freedoms are very limited. For example there is something similar to 1st amendment in the Romanian Constitution, but you can still go to jail just for opinions, while in UK even for thoughts (recent event confirms that). I would not bash the Muslim countries for brainwashing, everyone is doing it.
  - m0ntag 4y ago
    Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it right. Though I do not see how mixing the state with any religion would help in this regard. But sure, let's bash all authoritarianism to avoid hypocrisy :D
    - AdrianB1 4y ago
      I don't see how "everyone is doing it" is your reading of "some rights are more of an exception than a rule". What is the "do" part that everyone does? Not having it? The history is that there were no rights, then in some places some rights appeared, that means some countries are more or less behind, but not "doing it".
      - m0ntag 4y ago
        I am a bit confused by your reply. The "everyone is doing it" is your own words in reference to brainwashing? My statement was that I agree that western countries are likewise authoritarian and have issues with freedom of it's citizens. Nevertheless, I don't see a theocratic government as a step in the right direction to say the least.
        4y ago
- propagandist 4y ago
  If you think you have inalienable rights in the US, you've bought the marketing.
- tboyd47 4y ago
  Islam brought the concept of "inalienable rights" to the West. The West still doesn't get it because in their system, emergency powers override every "inalienable right" the Westerners think they are entitled to.
  - blhblah12345 4y ago
    I like to suck dick. If I get caught sucking dick in a Muslim country, I die. If I suck dick in the west, maybe I get my own dick sucked in return. Tell me again about the freedom of the islamic world.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      Because the locals don't want to, and you know it. Ask anybody in the streets about their opinions of gays, and you shall get your answer. It may be fundamental freedom for you, but for them its an outrageous act that deserves punishment. Don't like it, don't stay there, simple.
      - blhblah12345 4y ago
        Meanwhile, Turkish men are the most metrosexual in the world, and let's just say it 's easier to get laid in Taksim than it is in the Castro. I feel that Istanbul is actually a far gayer city than San Francisco, but everybody stays in the closet in order to survive. You have a funny concept of free. If I am not free to be exactly who I am, then I am not free. If I am forced to follow a religion under penalty of death, I am not free. If I am forced to not leave that religion under penalty of death, I am not free. If I am forced to be straight, I am not free. A free nation allows everybody to be free, not just the mainstream.
        jacooper 4y ago
        Then don't. The entire point of democracy is it allows commoners to decide regulation, and you bet that if there was ever a true democracy in the Arab world, gays won't be welcome in it either.
- AndrewUnmuted 4y ago
  [dead]
- random314 4y ago
  > Whenever my more liberal friends back in San Francisco talk about Palestine and the "Evil West" Those inalienable rights are for Americans and Israelis, not Palestinians.
- VictorPath 4y ago
  [dead]
- LudwigNagasena 4y ago
  > I recently tried explaining the 1st amendment to a Syrian CS student of mine. His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. Have you tried explaining them to your liberal friends in San Francisco? Their English is probably even better, but for some reason they still constantly fail to appreciate those concepts.
  - venv 4y ago
    [flagged]
- sureglymop 4y ago
  The same thing happened to me when talking to friends of me who are exchange students from china (i am from central europe). They were extremely smart but they could not understand political activism or why anyone would ever engage in that let alone be interested in politics. But of course the sample size here is n=2, not really enough to draw conclusions at all.
- dang 4y ago
  Ok, but please don't post generic religious or nationalistic flamewar comments to HN. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but that's what this is—especially when it gets upvoted to the top of the page, as these things often do. We're trying to avoid generic ideological tangents in general because they're the most predictable sort of internet discussion. The same points simply repeat in endless circulation. That may be fine for certain kinds of conversation but it's not fine for a forum dedicated to intellectual curiosity, which is served by diving in into what is specific and different about a situation. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=diffs%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: actually, given how badly you broke the site guidelines with religious flamewar elsewhere in the thread, I've banned the account. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34404910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34404910, and please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
- pasquinelli 4y ago
  this comment has successfully derailed the conversation. now we're talking about the arab person's disposition to freedom like it's twenty years ago and not what the kingdom of saudi arabia does to wikipedia editors, which is what the article you're ostensibly commenting on is about. what a waste of space.
- comte7092 4y ago
  People talk about the “evil west” in context of our own self professed values. When we do things like overthrow democratically elected leaders (Iran) and prop up dictatorships that are friendly to our interests, all while talking about how great we are, that’s what evil. The Iraq war is a textbook example of this. We claimed it was all about freedom and democracy, but the reality was that we had long supported Saddam while he fought an incredibly bloody war against Iran in the 80s, but he eventually fell out of favor when he started growing too ambitious and invade Kuwait. In the end, the US decided it would be better to just try and do the job ourselves and just overthrow him directly and nation build in our image in Iraq (and Afghanistan), surrounding Iran on both sides and setting things up for the next stage. We all know how it turned out, both Iraq and Afghanistan are looked upon as disasters, as both countries saw untold death and destruction, and aren’t any better off for it. Does that mean that I personally, as a citizen of the west think that the western values we profess are inferior, or have some sort of image of “noble” Muslims that are perfect and can do no wrong? Of course not. I am a reflection of the culture I was raised in and hold western values deeply. Which is why it enrages me that people chauvinistically look down upon people from other societies while ignoring the fact that we’ve gone into their countries and committed literal war crimes and pardoned the offenders. [0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/eddie-gallagher-trump-navy-seal-iraq https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/eddie-gallag...
kragen 4y ago
governments burn libraries
bhouston 4y ago
Similar to the many Saudis imprisoned for speaking out on Twitter: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/16/saudi-woman-given-34-year-prison-sentence-for-using-twitter https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/16/saudi-woman-gi... https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/saudi-arabia-american-jailed-tweets-1.6620760 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/saudi-arabia-american-jailed-t... To list a few.... And Elon Musk is using Saudi money to fund his Twitter: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prince-alwaleed-becomes-twitters-second-largest-shareholder/?sh=61b2329c523a https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prin... It is unlikely that Elon will mention anything of this to the Saudi's of course. They are too rich even for him to criticize. Saudi Arabia even got away with killing Jamal Khashoggi on foreign terrirotiry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashoggi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashog... And then the US government protected Saudi Arabia from any lawsuits in the US: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/7/immunity-cited-as-khashoggi-lawsuit-against-prince-dropped-in-us https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/7/immunity-cited-as-k...
- foverzar 4y ago
  > And then the US government protected Saudi Arabia from any lawsuits in the US I've just randomly clicked this link and... How in the world did you even manage to phrase it like that? Why do people lie in their summaries that often these days? Do you seriously expect that people are actually that ignorant that they won't call you out? Just 5 seconds into the article and knowing what a "diplomatic immunity" is all you need to see that the summary has nothing to do with an actual subject of the article. Is anyone else disturbed by how easily people twist and erase information in their sum-ups? What's up with that?
aaron695 4y ago
[dead]
dang 4y ago
Recent and related: Wikipedia admin jailed for 32 years after alleged Saudi infiltration - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34278322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34278322 - Jan 2023 (65 comments)

177 points by akolbe 4y ago

Related: "Saudi prosecutors seek death penalty for academic over social media use" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34394354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34394354

akolbe 4y ago
Also, from earlier on: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/14/saudi-arabia-human-rights-mbs-biden/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/14/saudi-ara... This piece by the Washington Post Editorial Board published in September 2022 actually mentioned one of the two Wikipedians but described him merely as "a writer, translator and computer programmer" – so the Wikipedia connection wasn't clear.

blhblah12345 4y ago

[flagged]

richbell 4y ago
I don't really see what this has to do with the submission. Furthermore, I think it's a bit of a strawman to say that people who think "The West" is evil (usually in reference to the USA's long history of spying on and overthrowing countries) wouldn't also think Saudi Arabia is evil.
za3faran 4y ago
> The things that keep the west alive are abstract, unfathomable concepts to the Ummah. As a Muslim, this is so incorrect to the point of almost absurdity. Just because you have encountered one person who appeared to you that he did not understand or comprehend a certain topic you were explaining, does not mean that the rest of the Muslims are the same. I can point you to many many youtube channels (just as an example) on Muslim scholars, sociologists, and more living both in the Middle East and in the West who have been discussing very nuanced sociopolitical topics and how they relate to our religion.
- blhblah12345 4y ago
  "One person" Like I said I've been in the islamic world for a decade. I've studied Arabic/Turkish music in Iran, Egypt, Turkiye, Azerbaijan, Lebanon, Jordan and Israel. It's not like "I met one muslim". I have spent about 20 hours per week for the past decade teaching Syrian and Yemeni refugees in Istanbul and Ankara. Please point me to a democratic, secular islamic nation. Just one? As far as I can tell this only existed for the brief period from when the Turkish Cumhuriyet was established until Ataturk drank himself to death. Most are kingdoms run by rich tribal warlords.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    > Just one? Honest question, how does Jordan fare in democracy?
    - blhblah12345 4y ago
      You should ask the king that question.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        From my limited experuence, Jordan seems to be the closest example of a democrcy in the Arab world I know. Sure, it is by no means democratic when compared to Western democracies. But they do not use totalitarian and draconian measures to surpress the population on a regular basis. Nor is Jordan an outright relogiously motivated chauvinist regime. And compared to other, more democratic nations like Tunesia or Marocco, Jordan is extremely stable. Which is a value in itself. But this is just my impression as an outsider.
      - throwaway09223 4y ago
        Plenty of democratic countries have monarchs. Most of Europe still has monarchs, because they're constitutional monarchies -- which is a fairly common democratic form of government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy What matters is not whether there is a king, but the details of how the specific powers are allocated between the different parts of government. Sweden is also a constitutional monarchy, with a king.
rayiner 4y ago
> His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. I don’t think that’s a charitable or logical framing of his point of view. Unless you’re religious—which the American framers were—“inalienable rights” are an illogical concept. In the state of nature, you are free to say whatever you want, and the people around you are free to beat you to death for it. It’s only when you have a civilized society that the concept of rights makes sense. Roughly speaking “rights” are simply rules society agrees upon for how individuals relate to each other (e.g. private property) or how society as a whole relates to the individual (e.g. free speech). There’s nothing inherent about any arbitrarily selected set of “rights.”
- thinking4real 4y ago
  It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had. Hubris abound.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > It’s hilarious watching all the posters tell OP he’s mistaken about a life experience he had. This is a pretty bullshit reading of the comment you replied to, which was about the nature of "rights" as a social agreement rather than something natural.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      To add to your comment, nobody says OP’s experience is incorrect. Instead, the comment thinking4real takes reflexive offence to seeks to explain it, not demean it.
    - andrewflnr 4y ago
      Said comment seized on one phrase, jumped to a conclusion about what the top-level's friend's actual misunderstanding was, and chastized them for not agreeing with their guess. We don't know if the top-level commenter's judgment is correct, but the rest of us certainly don't have enough evidence to be so confident they're wrong.
akolbe 4y ago
You're right, in a way, to call it brainwashing. But seen from another perspective, people living under authoritarian regimes simply think practically. They are aware of the acute danger to themselves and their families – all the more so as they can't just up sticks and go to live in San Francisco if they don't like it any more. The freedom of speech that only exists elsewhere might just as well not exist, and they're often tied to their country. One particularly discouraging aspect of these sentences is that they often include a long travel ban, to start upon release from prison. For refugees I'd guess it takes a long time for them to feel safe and for the established patterns of thought to "thaw".
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  When I was a kid, and pestering e.g. My dad where was mom (who might be shopping or in Washroom or whatever :), sometimes in exasperation he'd reply "she in California". It was the functional equivalent of dark side of moon, or even Narnia - place you've heard of but might well not exist. 20 years later, in Canada, my job sent me to California for training. When I heard, surprisingly to myself, I hyperventilated and got an asthma attack - my adult Canadian self and the 6 year old from somewhere else colliding in their expectations and worldview reality. Which is to say that I think you have a profound point in that somebody may be "aware" on intellectual level of different places, cultures, laws etc; and it still not feel very real or be at all relevant on practical level.
rockinghigh 4y ago
It sounds like you're generalizing from a couple of conversations. The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms. The idea that citizens in Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria are "intellectually incapable of understanding" the idea of freedom of speech is insulting.
- nickff 4y ago
  "Unfathomable" is very different from "intellectually incapable of understanding". You're arguing against a straw-man of your own making.
  - rockinghigh 4y ago
    I simply quoted the original commenter who used these words.
- pydry 4y ago
  >The Arab Spring of 2010-2012 started because citizens in the Arab world wanted more freedoms. I'm not sure they were. They kicked off when food prices spiked, and proximate causes were corruption and unemployment. Officially endorsed foreign protests against government we don't particularly like are always described as being about freedom in the west for reasons that aren't always good. >The idea that citizens in Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria are "intellectually incapable of understanding" the idea of freedom of speech is insulting. Yes, absolutely it is.
  - elashri 4y ago
    As an Egyptian who took part of the arab spring, I really laughed on your argument (sorry no insult). But as simple as argument it is, It doesn't hold because you see the Egyptian currency is no almost 6x less with 10x or more on average for food prices and there is no movement to overthrow the current regime. And for corruption and unemployment, they are much worse now than before. Then more than half the country are under poverty line, most of middle class became lower class in a couple of years. There were no particular reason why the uprising happened, of course some people joined because of that. But this wasn't my reason (or majority of people I know).
AdrianB1 4y ago
My parents lived in Jordan (as expats) for over 30 years. Back in 1980, Jordan was a very modern country and had great rulers, my father was in good relations with one of the king's sons (I don't remember which one) and he met the king several times, he was speaking highly about them and he considered Jordan one of the most modern and free Muslim countries. At the same time, rights and freedoms are limited in most of the world, not just in the Muslim countries. There is no first amendment anywhere outside USA, there is no second anywhere else, even in Europe the rights and freedoms are very limited. For example there is something similar to 1st amendment in the Romanian Constitution, but you can still go to jail just for opinions, while in UK even for thoughts (recent event confirms that). I would not bash the Muslim countries for brainwashing, everyone is doing it.
- m0ntag 4y ago
  Just because everyone is doing it, doesn't make it right. Though I do not see how mixing the state with any religion would help in this regard. But sure, let's bash all authoritarianism to avoid hypocrisy :D
  - AdrianB1 4y ago
    I don't see how "everyone is doing it" is your reading of "some rights are more of an exception than a rule". What is the "do" part that everyone does? Not having it? The history is that there were no rights, then in some places some rights appeared, that means some countries are more or less behind, but not "doing it".
    - m0ntag 4y ago
      I am a bit confused by your reply. The "everyone is doing it" is your own words in reference to brainwashing? My statement was that I agree that western countries are likewise authoritarian and have issues with freedom of it's citizens. Nevertheless, I don't see a theocratic government as a step in the right direction to say the least.
      - 4y ago
propagandist 4y ago
If you think you have inalienable rights in the US, you've bought the marketing.
tboyd47 4y ago
Islam brought the concept of "inalienable rights" to the West. The West still doesn't get it because in their system, emergency powers override every "inalienable right" the Westerners think they are entitled to.
- blhblah12345 4y ago
  I like to suck dick. If I get caught sucking dick in a Muslim country, I die. If I suck dick in the west, maybe I get my own dick sucked in return. Tell me again about the freedom of the islamic world.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    Because the locals don't want to, and you know it. Ask anybody in the streets about their opinions of gays, and you shall get your answer. It may be fundamental freedom for you, but for them its an outrageous act that deserves punishment. Don't like it, don't stay there, simple.
    - blhblah12345 4y ago
      Meanwhile, Turkish men are the most metrosexual in the world, and let's just say it 's easier to get laid in Taksim than it is in the Castro. I feel that Istanbul is actually a far gayer city than San Francisco, but everybody stays in the closet in order to survive. You have a funny concept of free. If I am not free to be exactly who I am, then I am not free. If I am forced to follow a religion under penalty of death, I am not free. If I am forced to not leave that religion under penalty of death, I am not free. If I am forced to be straight, I am not free. A free nation allows everybody to be free, not just the mainstream.
      - jacooper 4y ago
        Then don't. The entire point of democracy is it allows commoners to decide regulation, and you bet that if there was ever a true democracy in the Arab world, gays won't be welcome in it either.
AndrewUnmuted 4y ago
[dead]
random314 4y ago
> Whenever my more liberal friends back in San Francisco talk about Palestine and the "Evil West" Those inalienable rights are for Americans and Israelis, not Palestinians.
VictorPath 4y ago
[dead]
LudwigNagasena 4y ago
> I recently tried explaining the 1st amendment to a Syrian CS student of mine. His English is very good, but the concept of inalienable rights, freedom of speech, and freedom to yell at our politicians .. he was intellectually incapable of understanding this, his society had brainwashed him so thoroughly. Have you tried explaining them to your liberal friends in San Francisco? Their English is probably even better, but for some reason they still constantly fail to appreciate those concepts.
- venv 4y ago
  [flagged]
sureglymop 4y ago
The same thing happened to me when talking to friends of me who are exchange students from china (i am from central europe). They were extremely smart but they could not understand political activism or why anyone would ever engage in that let alone be interested in politics. But of course the sample size here is n=2, not really enough to draw conclusions at all.
dang 4y ago
Ok, but please don't post generic religious or nationalistic flamewar comments to HN. I'm sure you didn't intend it that way, but that's what this is—especially when it gets upvoted to the top of the page, as these things often do. We're trying to avoid generic ideological tangents in general because they're the most predictable sort of internet discussion. The same points simply repeat in endless circulation. That may be fine for certain kinds of conversation but it's not fine for a forum dedicated to intellectual curiosity, which is served by diving in into what is specific and different about a situation. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20ideolog%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20repetition%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=diffs%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Edit: actually, given how badly you broke the site guidelines with religious flamewar elsewhere in the thread, I've banned the account. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34404910 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34404910, and please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.
pasquinelli 4y ago
this comment has successfully derailed the conversation. now we're talking about the arab person's disposition to freedom like it's twenty years ago and not what the kingdom of saudi arabia does to wikipedia editors, which is what the article you're ostensibly commenting on is about. what a waste of space.
comte7092 4y ago
People talk about the “evil west” in context of our own self professed values. When we do things like overthrow democratically elected leaders (Iran) and prop up dictatorships that are friendly to our interests, all while talking about how great we are, that’s what evil. The Iraq war is a textbook example of this. We claimed it was all about freedom and democracy, but the reality was that we had long supported Saddam while he fought an incredibly bloody war against Iran in the 80s, but he eventually fell out of favor when he started growing too ambitious and invade Kuwait. In the end, the US decided it would be better to just try and do the job ourselves and just overthrow him directly and nation build in our image in Iraq (and Afghanistan), surrounding Iran on both sides and setting things up for the next stage. We all know how it turned out, both Iraq and Afghanistan are looked upon as disasters, as both countries saw untold death and destruction, and aren’t any better off for it. Does that mean that I personally, as a citizen of the west think that the western values we profess are inferior, or have some sort of image of “noble” Muslims that are perfect and can do no wrong? Of course not. I am a reflection of the culture I was raised in and hold western values deeply. Which is why it enrages me that people chauvinistically look down upon people from other societies while ignoring the fact that we’ve gone into their countries and committed literal war crimes and pardoned the offenders. [0] [0] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/eddie-gallagher-trump-navy-seal-iraq https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/27/eddie-gallag...

kragen 4y ago

governments burn libraries

bhouston 4y ago

Similar to the many Saudis imprisoned for speaking out on Twitter: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/16/saudi-woman-given-34-year-prison-sentence-for-using-twitter https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/16/saudi-woman-gi... https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/saudi-arabia-american-jailed-tweets-1.6620760 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/saudi-arabia-american-jailed-t... To list a few.... And Elon Musk is using Saudi money to fund his Twitter: https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prince-alwaleed-becomes-twitters-second-largest-shareholder/?sh=61b2329c523a https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prin... It is unlikely that Elon will mention anything of this to the Saudi's of course. They are too rich even for him to criticize. Saudi Arabia even got away with killing Jamal Khashoggi on foreign terrirotiry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashoggi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashog... And then the US government protected Saudi Arabia from any lawsuits in the US: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/7/immunity-cited-as-khashoggi-lawsuit-against-prince-dropped-in-us https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/12/7/immunity-cited-as-k...

foverzar 4y ago
> And then the US government protected Saudi Arabia from any lawsuits in the US I've just randomly clicked this link and... How in the world did you even manage to phrase it like that? Why do people lie in their summaries that often these days? Do you seriously expect that people are actually that ignorant that they won't call you out? Just 5 seconds into the article and knowing what a "diplomatic immunity" is all you need to see that the summary has nothing to do with an actual subject of the article. Is anyone else disturbed by how easily people twist and erase information in their sum-ups? What's up with that?

aaron695 4y ago

[dead]

dang 4y ago

Recent and related: Wikipedia admin jailed for 32 years after alleged Saudi infiltration - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34278322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34278322 - Jan 2023 (65 comments)