There exist C and C++ projects that have zero memory safety vulns. There also exist C and C++ projects that don't operate on untrusted data and so the consequen

There exist C and C++ projects that have zero memory safety vulns. There also exist C and C++ projects that don't operate on untrusted data and so the consequences of a memory safety error are just crashes. I don't believe that the Chrome or Android developers are especially unique developers. I think that they are a decent proxy for a typical developer on a large project that has significant adversaries. These projects are developed by companies that use better-than-typical tooling to detect vulns. So I believe that these projects are good examples of what you can expect from ordinary developers using the most recommended safety tools. And... they are full of vulns. If you own a project that is developed entirely by extremely skilled developers or has no significant security characteristics then that's different. But if some person is hiring a bunch of engineers to build and maintain a project that has nontrivial security implications, I think that these projects are decent proxies for the best you can hope for. I do not believe that it is possible to train an org of developers to safely write a complex project that has nontrivial security implications in C++. I've been writing C++ code for well over a decade and a significant portion of my career involves static analysis of C++ code. "The haters just don't use C++" is not a compelling argument, in my opinion. In fact, you can find members of the C++ committee who agree that it isn't acceptable for the long term safety of software. Surely they "use the language." --- Analogies won't ever produce meaningful argumentation here. You can say that Rust is a train and that C++ is a car. I can say that Rust is more like a car with a bunch of modern safety features like lane assist and anti-lock brakes. That's not going to get us anywhere.