5 ms·

It's clear that we don't need supertalls but rather they are a mechanism for the most rich and corrupt (including the builder) to launder money.

credit_guy 4y ago
How exactly do you launder money by buying a super-luxury apartment? Let's say you are a druglord from Mexico, and have a minivan full with one hundred dollar bills. You want to come and buy a 100 million apartment in NYC. How do you imagine that transaction will happen? Do you think the building developer will just agree to take the bills? And then they'll go to their bank and attempt to deposit it? How will the real estate broker get their fee? In bills too? Here's the thing: in this country, if you agree to take large amounts of cash, no questions asked, and then try to deposit them at a bank, you just painted a huge bull's eye on you, as far as the US law enforcement is concerned. At a minimum you become an accessory to money laundering.
- guntherhermann 4y ago
  You don't think all these owned, yet empty luxury apartments in cities isn't money laundering? Give me your occam's razor version then, because that's my take (and clearly many other people think the same). What's the most likely explanation? In the UK there are loads of examples of this. Maybe the US is miles ahead of the UK on this, but somehow I doubt it. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/property/anti-money-laundering-in-property https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/property/anti-money-lau... > Money laundering through property is a major problem And the example you give of a van full of cash is naive. That isn't how it goes down, and if I'm honest, I think you know that.
  - danaris 4y ago
    I suspect you may be falling victim to the problem shown in XKCD 2501 [0]: "Well, I've paid a lot of attention to it, so I know all about money laundering, but the average person probably only knows one, maybe two basic methods." "And that a van full of cash never works, of course." "Of course!" [0] https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/
  - credit_guy 4y ago
    Real estate transactions can be used for money laundering, but it's extremely unlikely this would happen for the cases discussed here. Here's two possible money laundering schemes involving real estate: 1. you buy a multi-unit and rent it out to a number of tenants. You tell them you like them so much that you'll charge them a bit below market price. You'll charge them $1000 per month, when the actual market price would be $1200. The only thing you ask is that theyt sign a contract for $1400/month. You tell them not to worry, they'll need to only pay $1000, the $1400 is a technicality for mortgage purposes, or whatever. Now, every month, when they pay you $1000, you add $400 that you have obtained separately from selling drugs, or some other criminal activity, and you got to the bank and deposit that. you have all the documents to show the source of your funds is legit. The bank inquires about this source of funds, as per the Anti-Money-Laundering regulations. But you're covered. 2. You buy run down properties with legit funds. Then you improve them significantly. You pay the contractors with cash (obtained illegally). Later, you sell the properties. You don't try to make a profit. All you care is the guys who buy the properties are absolutely spotless. Now the proceeds of the sales of the properties are clean. You just converted money spent on renovations in money received on property sales. The weak link in the system is the contractors who are ok with cash payments. Now it's your turn. Can you please come up with a plausible scenario where one would launder money via a $100 million apartment next to Central Park in New York City?
    - guntherhermann 4y ago
      Here are some examples: https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Shreeve.pdf https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Shreeve.p... https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Rollins.pdf https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Rollins.p... http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2006/2155.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2006/2155.html I won't abide by your requirements (cash in a van / $100m property), because those weren't my initial arguments. Money fraud through property happens. Money fraud through luxury property happens. It happens. It's rife (In the UK, especially London). Maybe the US is ahead of the curve, but I remain skeptical. I didn't ask for you to give examples of how money fraud through property could happen, I asked for you to state the simplest explanation for all these empty luxury properties existing, that isn't explained through fraud. Who is buying them? It's corruption!
- truculent 4y ago
  While some of these methods likely wouldn't apply to a super-luxury apartment, there are a variety of ways someone might launder money through property, as outlined here: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4242839e-373c-4525-a853-3ad5cc84a17b https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4242839e-373c...
- slv77 4y ago
  Property is seen as good way of holding a relatively large amount of money off-shore for funds that you can’t or don’t want to repatriate. Easy to blend in with millions of rentals held in small LLCs with no centralized reporting requirements like bank deposits or stocks. https://www.propublica.org/article/china-cartels-xizhi-li-money-laundering/amp https://www.propublica.org/article/china-cartels-xizhi-li-mo... Many clients bought homes or paid U.S. university tuition.
QIYGT 4y ago
They're a logical and predictable outcome of zoning laws that make the most efficient and desirable forms of apartments illegal.

credit_guy 4y ago

How exactly do you launder money by buying a super-luxury apartment? Let's say you are a druglord from Mexico, and have a minivan full with one hundred dollar bills. You want to come and buy a 100 million apartment in NYC. How do you imagine that transaction will happen? Do you think the building developer will just agree to take the bills? And then they'll go to their bank and attempt to deposit it? How will the real estate broker get their fee? In bills too? Here's the thing: in this country, if you agree to take large amounts of cash, no questions asked, and then try to deposit them at a bank, you just painted a huge bull's eye on you, as far as the US law enforcement is concerned. At a minimum you become an accessory to money laundering.

guntherhermann 4y ago
You don't think all these owned, yet empty luxury apartments in cities isn't money laundering? Give me your occam's razor version then, because that's my take (and clearly many other people think the same). What's the most likely explanation? In the UK there are loads of examples of this. Maybe the US is miles ahead of the UK on this, but somehow I doubt it. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/property/anti-money-laundering-in-property https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/property/anti-money-lau... > Money laundering through property is a major problem And the example you give of a van full of cash is naive. That isn't how it goes down, and if I'm honest, I think you know that.
- danaris 4y ago
  I suspect you may be falling victim to the problem shown in XKCD 2501 [0]: "Well, I've paid a lot of attention to it, so I know all about money laundering, but the average person probably only knows one, maybe two basic methods." "And that a van full of cash never works, of course." "Of course!" [0] https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/
- credit_guy 4y ago
  Real estate transactions can be used for money laundering, but it's extremely unlikely this would happen for the cases discussed here. Here's two possible money laundering schemes involving real estate: 1. you buy a multi-unit and rent it out to a number of tenants. You tell them you like them so much that you'll charge them a bit below market price. You'll charge them $1000 per month, when the actual market price would be $1200. The only thing you ask is that theyt sign a contract for $1400/month. You tell them not to worry, they'll need to only pay $1000, the $1400 is a technicality for mortgage purposes, or whatever. Now, every month, when they pay you $1000, you add $400 that you have obtained separately from selling drugs, or some other criminal activity, and you got to the bank and deposit that. you have all the documents to show the source of your funds is legit. The bank inquires about this source of funds, as per the Anti-Money-Laundering regulations. But you're covered. 2. You buy run down properties with legit funds. Then you improve them significantly. You pay the contractors with cash (obtained illegally). Later, you sell the properties. You don't try to make a profit. All you care is the guys who buy the properties are absolutely spotless. Now the proceeds of the sales of the properties are clean. You just converted money spent on renovations in money received on property sales. The weak link in the system is the contractors who are ok with cash payments. Now it's your turn. Can you please come up with a plausible scenario where one would launder money via a $100 million apartment next to Central Park in New York City?
  - guntherhermann 4y ago
    Here are some examples: https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Shreeve.pdf https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Shreeve.p... https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Rollins.pdf https://crimeline.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Rollins.p... http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2006/2155.html http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2006/2155.html I won't abide by your requirements (cash in a van / $100m property), because those weren't my initial arguments. Money fraud through property happens. Money fraud through luxury property happens. It happens. It's rife (In the UK, especially London). Maybe the US is ahead of the curve, but I remain skeptical. I didn't ask for you to give examples of how money fraud through property could happen, I asked for you to state the simplest explanation for all these empty luxury properties existing, that isn't explained through fraud. Who is buying them? It's corruption!
truculent 4y ago
While some of these methods likely wouldn't apply to a super-luxury apartment, there are a variety of ways someone might launder money through property, as outlined here: https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4242839e-373c-4525-a853-3ad5cc84a17b https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=4242839e-373c...
slv77 4y ago
Property is seen as good way of holding a relatively large amount of money off-shore for funds that you can’t or don’t want to repatriate. Easy to blend in with millions of rentals held in small LLCs with no centralized reporting requirements like bank deposits or stocks. https://www.propublica.org/article/china-cartels-xizhi-li-money-laundering/amp https://www.propublica.org/article/china-cartels-xizhi-li-mo... Many clients bought homes or paid U.S. university tuition.

QIYGT 4y ago

They're a logical and predictable outcome of zoning laws that make the most efficient and desirable forms of apartments illegal.