3 ms·

> "Ivermectin is not being recommended by reliable sources. Adding to that all communications regarding ivermectin and other crazy people miracle drugs, it sho

> "Ivermectin is not being recommended by reliable sources. Adding to that all communications regarding ivermectin and other crazy people miracle drugs, it should have been communicated that "Ivermectin is generally safe for human consumption. Ivermectin is highly dangerous if taken in single dosages above xxx mg/kg or longer than yyy days. There must be at least zzz hours between individual dosages of Ivermectin. Do not take more than vvv mg/kg a day. If you violate any of the advice given here, side effects might include: x, y, z, allergic shock, death, neurotoxicity." Instead those hell bent on taking it were ridiculed and ostracized, taking it in secret and an uncontrolled fashion. They could have been both forced and allowed to get in in pharmacies, with the condition of them also taking an information pamphlet or something -instead they went for more difficult to dose formulation directed at large animals.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
pjc50 4y ago
If you ask a pharmacy about off-label use of a drug, they are going to tell you "no", not to advise you how to take something you don't need. It might even be a breach of their license conditions to do otherwise.
- DoreenMichele 4y ago
  20 percent of all prescriptions are written for uses not approved by the FDA. https://www.drugwatch.com/health/off-label-drug-use/ https://www.drugwatch.com/health/off-label-drug-use/
  - KSteffensen 4y ago
    Minor nitpick, prescriptions are written by doctors, with a medical degree, rather than pharmacists with a degree in pharmaceutical science dealing mostly with analytical chemistry and biochemistry.
    - DoreenMichele 4y ago
      My understanding is that policies vary from one country to the next. I'm American. My understanding is that in the US you need a prescription from a licensed healthcare professional to get medication from a pharmacy. This usually means a doctor but in some states a physician's assistant may have the authority to write prescriptions. In the US, if it doesn't require a prescription, it is sold over the counter, though they may check your ID to see if you are a legal adult for some things. I have heard anecdotally that in other countries pharmacists can sometimes dispense medication without a prescription. HN is a very international discussion space. This fairly often leads to people speaking past each other as their comments may well be rooted in a completely different set of assumptions and mental models about how such things work.
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  Then we need better, more humane laws for this topic. What's so hard about saying "Regulations force me to say and I personally believe that you should not take this medication, but if you insist on taking it please observe the following rules or you risk death and disability." Meanwhile people regularly and irreparably blow up their livers with paracetamol and no one gives a damn.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Paracetamol is weird; it's clearly been grandfathered in as you'd never get it approved now. The UK sells it without a prescription, but you're not allowed by the shop (often enforced by the POS software!) to buy too much at once. Then there's cocodamol, where in an effort to avoid "addiction" issues the relatively safe opiates are cut with relatively low-LD50 paracetamol. I don't think an informational campaign would have helped with the ivermectin problem. Underlying that was the conspiracist belief that people were lying to them. Why would they believe a safety leaflet?
    - pas 4y ago
      They got their hands on ivermectin anyway. Sure, making it easier to try would have lead to more abuses. However, in theory thats why people have GPs or PCPs, to oversee their treatment. Yes, they were overloaded (as they always are), but if people want to try a treatment, in general we shouldn't say no. We should enroll them in a trial, etc. And we should say no when we have enough data to be sure that it's very unlikely to work, and still, in general fighting scammers/fraudsters and various snakeoil salesfolk should be done through prosecution of those who knowingly make false statements, thereby intentionally defrauding vulnerable people, not through right to sell shit. (And yes, this is a very hairy topic, because everything is fucking expensive when it comes to medicine. But that's one more reason to streamline it instead of having a cottage industry is these trial runners hemorrhage money into a thousand pockets.)
    - notahacker 4y ago
      > I don't think an informational campaign would have helped with the ivermectin problem. Underlying that was the conspiracist belief that people were lying to them. Why would they believe a safety leaflet? And also afaik the biggest problem with Invermectin wasn't that people were overdosing on it, it's that they were treating it as a prophylactic or potential miracle cure which meant they didn't have to worry about catching or spreading COVID (or get vaccinated, when the vaccines were introduced). "Homeopathy doesn't cure HIV, but here are the dosages of homeopathic remedies which people looking to manage their HIV status with homeopathy rather than antiretroviral drugs and condoms should take", said no public health information campaign ever Afaik Invermectin has all the safety information regarding its dosages on the packet anyway (at least the packets designed for human use...). Doesn't mean people getting health advice from people shouting about the evils of the medical profession on talk radio or Facebook necessarily acknowledged them.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

pjc50 4y ago

If you ask a pharmacy about off-label use of a drug, they are going to tell you "no", not to advise you how to take something you don't need. It might even be a breach of their license conditions to do otherwise.

DoreenMichele 4y ago
20 percent of all prescriptions are written for uses not approved by the FDA. https://www.drugwatch.com/health/off-label-drug-use/ https://www.drugwatch.com/health/off-label-drug-use/
- KSteffensen 4y ago
  Minor nitpick, prescriptions are written by doctors, with a medical degree, rather than pharmacists with a degree in pharmaceutical science dealing mostly with analytical chemistry and biochemistry.
  - DoreenMichele 4y ago
    My understanding is that policies vary from one country to the next. I'm American. My understanding is that in the US you need a prescription from a licensed healthcare professional to get medication from a pharmacy. This usually means a doctor but in some states a physician's assistant may have the authority to write prescriptions. In the US, if it doesn't require a prescription, it is sold over the counter, though they may check your ID to see if you are a legal adult for some things. I have heard anecdotally that in other countries pharmacists can sometimes dispense medication without a prescription. HN is a very international discussion space. This fairly often leads to people speaking past each other as their comments may well be rooted in a completely different set of assumptions and mental models about how such things work.
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
Then we need better, more humane laws for this topic. What's so hard about saying "Regulations force me to say and I personally believe that you should not take this medication, but if you insist on taking it please observe the following rules or you risk death and disability." Meanwhile people regularly and irreparably blow up their livers with paracetamol and no one gives a damn.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Paracetamol is weird; it's clearly been grandfathered in as you'd never get it approved now. The UK sells it without a prescription, but you're not allowed by the shop (often enforced by the POS software!) to buy too much at once. Then there's cocodamol, where in an effort to avoid "addiction" issues the relatively safe opiates are cut with relatively low-LD50 paracetamol. I don't think an informational campaign would have helped with the ivermectin problem. Underlying that was the conspiracist belief that people were lying to them. Why would they believe a safety leaflet?
  - pas 4y ago
    They got their hands on ivermectin anyway. Sure, making it easier to try would have lead to more abuses. However, in theory thats why people have GPs or PCPs, to oversee their treatment. Yes, they were overloaded (as they always are), but if people want to try a treatment, in general we shouldn't say no. We should enroll them in a trial, etc. And we should say no when we have enough data to be sure that it's very unlikely to work, and still, in general fighting scammers/fraudsters and various snakeoil salesfolk should be done through prosecution of those who knowingly make false statements, thereby intentionally defrauding vulnerable people, not through right to sell shit. (And yes, this is a very hairy topic, because everything is fucking expensive when it comes to medicine. But that's one more reason to streamline it instead of having a cottage industry is these trial runners hemorrhage money into a thousand pockets.)
  - notahacker 4y ago
    > I don't think an informational campaign would have helped with the ivermectin problem. Underlying that was the conspiracist belief that people were lying to them. Why would they believe a safety leaflet? And also afaik the biggest problem with Invermectin wasn't that people were overdosing on it, it's that they were treating it as a prophylactic or potential miracle cure which meant they didn't have to worry about catching or spreading COVID (or get vaccinated, when the vaccines were introduced). "Homeopathy doesn't cure HIV, but here are the dosages of homeopathic remedies which people looking to manage their HIV status with homeopathy rather than antiretroviral drugs and condoms should take", said no public health information campaign ever Afaik Invermectin has all the safety information regarding its dosages on the packet anyway (at least the packets designed for human use...). Doesn't mean people getting health advice from people shouting about the evils of the medical profession on talk radio or Facebook necessarily acknowledged them.