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> And by African, I mean the blackface depiction with the white lips that is reminiscent of old Al Jolson films. Not trying to excuse anything, but I wonder ho

> And by African, I mean the blackface depiction with the white lips that is reminiscent of old Al Jolson films. Not trying to excuse anything, but I wonder how much this kind of depiction was an artefact of animation/video production in a black-and-white or early-colour era, much like how old cartoon animals with black fur often wear white gloves, to give hands/mouths some contrast and make movement visible. Arguably, even "modern" cameras are apparently not designed with noncaucasian skintones in mind, something interest groups do not tire to bring up.

defrost 4y ago
> I wonder how much this kind of depiction was an artefact of animation/video production in a black-and-white or early-colour era Zero. Nada, Nothing. The history of blackface begins with stage and musical performances "aping" actual black musicians and banjo players [1]. There wasn't a lot of film work happening in 1848 . . . [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
hef19898 4y ago
Black Face is older then cameras. And as far as modern cameras go, with my limited experience in digital photo post processing, I'd say that the skin tone issue might have something to do with White Balancing. This is tricky in landscapes already, because not everybody carries normal grey cards with them (some people do apparently). And I know from people that shoot a lot more portraits that getting skin tones is always tricky. Not saying it isn't related to cameras, so. But if it is, I'd suspect it to be much more of an issue with in-camera created JPEGs, RAW files don't do white balancing (at least all my Nikons don't). I have zero clue how dedicated video cameras work, so...
Terretta 4y ago
There's a ton of cartoons from the era clearly blackface. However, to your point, even recent photographs in color and black and white depict the tonal contrast one could imagine inspiring the cartoon character in question: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3e50441087256791f079ff8f59d472b1-c https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3e50441087256791f079ff... https://get.pxhere.com/photo/black-and-white-people-white-photography-boy-male-portrait-model-young-child-darkness-black-monochrome-baby-childhood-close-up-face-kids-nose-eyes-children-fun-eye-head-little-beauty-expression-organ-african-portraiture-monochrome-photography-dramatic-portrait-portrait-photography-609192.jpg https://get.pxhere.com/photo/black-and-white-people-white-ph... Until you get to the name Inki... tips their hand a bit.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
> Arguably, even "modern" cameras are apparently not designed with noncaucasian skintones in mind, something interest groups do not tire to bring up. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Can you give an example of why you think that?
- robotresearcher 4y ago
  Not so long ago, film processes and machines were optimized and calibrated for reference images of only white faces[1]. Darker-skinned people often found their skin tones were badly reproduced. The analogous thing happened again in digital processes, up to and including AI image processing trained on datasets where white skin is overrepresented. The industry's awareness of this issue is now pretty high. I don't know if the issue is solved in practice on current-gen cameras/phones/software or not. Anyone have latest info? [1] https://www.npr.org/2014/11/13/363517842/for-decades-kodak-s-shirley-cards-set-photography-s-skin-tone-standard https://www.npr.org/2014/11/13/363517842/for-decades-kodak-s...
  - Gordonjcp 4y ago
    That's interesting, I hadn't really thought of it that way. I wonder if that's why the first colour grading exercise in the training material for BMD DaVinci Resolve is an excerpt from a documentary about rhinos, where you need to balance a reasonably clean shot of a white woman, a gorgeous but fairly tricky shot of a black man (in profile, strong sunlight on his nose, eyes and cheek, rest in deep shadow), and a couple of mid and long shots of black gamekeepers walking around. There's a lot to get right and a lot to get wrong, and you can end up making everyone look a pretty sickly colour.

defrost 4y ago

> I wonder how much this kind of depiction was an artefact of animation/video production in a black-and-white or early-colour era Zero. Nada, Nothing. The history of blackface begins with stage and musical performances "aping" actual black musicians and banjo players [1]. There wasn't a lot of film work happening in 1848 . . . [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show

hef19898 4y ago

Black Face is older then cameras. And as far as modern cameras go, with my limited experience in digital photo post processing, I'd say that the skin tone issue might have something to do with White Balancing. This is tricky in landscapes already, because not everybody carries normal grey cards with them (some people do apparently). And I know from people that shoot a lot more portraits that getting skin tones is always tricky. Not saying it isn't related to cameras, so. But if it is, I'd suspect it to be much more of an issue with in-camera created JPEGs, RAW files don't do white balancing (at least all my Nikons don't). I have zero clue how dedicated video cameras work, so...

Terretta 4y ago

There's a ton of cartoons from the era clearly blackface. However, to your point, even recent photographs in color and black and white depict the tonal contrast one could imagine inspiring the cartoon character in question: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3e50441087256791f079ff8f59d472b1-c https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3e50441087256791f079ff... https://get.pxhere.com/photo/black-and-white-people-white-photography-boy-male-portrait-model-young-child-darkness-black-monochrome-baby-childhood-close-up-face-kids-nose-eyes-children-fun-eye-head-little-beauty-expression-organ-african-portraiture-monochrome-photography-dramatic-portrait-portrait-photography-609192.jpg https://get.pxhere.com/photo/black-and-white-people-white-ph... Until you get to the name Inki... tips their hand a bit.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

> Arguably, even "modern" cameras are apparently not designed with noncaucasian skintones in mind, something interest groups do not tire to bring up. That doesn't make a lot of sense. Can you give an example of why you think that?

robotresearcher 4y ago
Not so long ago, film processes and machines were optimized and calibrated for reference images of only white faces[1]. Darker-skinned people often found their skin tones were badly reproduced. The analogous thing happened again in digital processes, up to and including AI image processing trained on datasets where white skin is overrepresented. The industry's awareness of this issue is now pretty high. I don't know if the issue is solved in practice on current-gen cameras/phones/software or not. Anyone have latest info? [1] https://www.npr.org/2014/11/13/363517842/for-decades-kodak-s-shirley-cards-set-photography-s-skin-tone-standard https://www.npr.org/2014/11/13/363517842/for-decades-kodak-s...
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  That's interesting, I hadn't really thought of it that way. I wonder if that's why the first colour grading exercise in the training material for BMD DaVinci Resolve is an excerpt from a documentary about rhinos, where you need to balance a reasonably clean shot of a white woman, a gorgeous but fairly tricky shot of a black man (in profile, strong sunlight on his nose, eyes and cheek, rest in deep shadow), and a couple of mid and long shots of black gamekeepers walking around. There's a lot to get right and a lot to get wrong, and you can end up making everyone look a pretty sickly colour.