4 ms·

I'm gonna take an uneducated guess that though the simulation is in lockstep, the order of inputs from all players is not known ahead of time so you can't peek

I'm gonna take an uneducated guess that though the simulation is in lockstep, the order of inputs from all players is not known ahead of time so you can't peek too far. Though maybe a cheat engine could simulate a few branches of possible inputs a few steps ahead and adjust inputs when it discovers split-second advantages?

hot_gril 4y ago
Everyone waits for your client's next step. Your client can basically pause the game whenever it wants, giving you time to do something. But there are bigger exploits. IIRC, the client sends separate actions for buying a unit/tech/building and paying resources, and the other clients don't enforce that they go together. This allows malicious clients to buy without paying. It's been seen a few times even in the ranked mode of the Definitive Edition remake. https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/fjjudp/cheaters_are_a_thing_in_de_apparently/ https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/fjjudp/cheaters_are_a... This way of doing things made sense for the time, and the execution was impressive. It was pretty reliable, nobody wanted to cheat anyway, and yes lag was a big problem but there wasn't another good way to do it back then. Nowadays they should have something else IMO.
- ComputerGuru 4y ago
  > Nowadays they should have something else IMO. Finally found a genuine use for the blockchain, since the server is only used for the lobby! Mine virtual AoE gold and record it in the distributed ledger. Primitive path finding is also AI, so now you just need some investors!
  - hot_gril 4y ago
    DE seems to use a relay server. Old version relied on P1 setting up port forwarding and always being present in the game, not an issue anymore.
- lolinder 4y ago
  That problem doesn't seem inherent to the model, it's a flaw in the selection of client steps. Is there any reason transactions like building and paying couldn't be atomic?
  - hot_gril 4y ago
    I don't know why it's that way. My guess would be complexity. Yeah, they could fix that later, but they can't fix the fog of war cheat, which would also be pretty powerful.
  - Emjayen 4y ago
    The problem is simply the lack of validation -- I detailed it a bit below in my top-level comment. The only exploits that are inherently applicable in the case of a simultaneous deterministic simulation model are those of the information-revealing class (e.g, "maphack"). This is where a standard AH system comes in.
bluescrn 4y ago
Deterministic multiplayer has an assortment of cheating problems that weren't really a big deal in the early days of online multiplayer, but certainly are now, in the days of ranking systems and very competitive gaming. The obvious one is that the client knows where everything is on the map, even when hidden by fog-of-war - so client-side hacks can reveal that. A hacked client can easily desync the game too, or stall it and cause it to time out if the player is losing.

hot_gril 4y ago

Everyone waits for your client's next step. Your client can basically pause the game whenever it wants, giving you time to do something. But there are bigger exploits. IIRC, the client sends separate actions for buying a unit/tech/building and paying resources, and the other clients don't enforce that they go together. This allows malicious clients to buy without paying. It's been seen a few times even in the ranked mode of the Definitive Edition remake. https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/fjjudp/cheaters_are_a_thing_in_de_apparently/ https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/fjjudp/cheaters_are_a... This way of doing things made sense for the time, and the execution was impressive. It was pretty reliable, nobody wanted to cheat anyway, and yes lag was a big problem but there wasn't another good way to do it back then. Nowadays they should have something else IMO.

ComputerGuru 4y ago
> Nowadays they should have something else IMO. Finally found a genuine use for the blockchain, since the server is only used for the lobby! Mine virtual AoE gold and record it in the distributed ledger. Primitive path finding is also AI, so now you just need some investors!
- hot_gril 4y ago
  DE seems to use a relay server. Old version relied on P1 setting up port forwarding and always being present in the game, not an issue anymore.
lolinder 4y ago
That problem doesn't seem inherent to the model, it's a flaw in the selection of client steps. Is there any reason transactions like building and paying couldn't be atomic?
- hot_gril 4y ago
  I don't know why it's that way. My guess would be complexity. Yeah, they could fix that later, but they can't fix the fog of war cheat, which would also be pretty powerful.
- Emjayen 4y ago
  The problem is simply the lack of validation -- I detailed it a bit below in my top-level comment. The only exploits that are inherently applicable in the case of a simultaneous deterministic simulation model are those of the information-revealing class (e.g, "maphack"). This is where a standard AH system comes in.

bluescrn 4y ago

Deterministic multiplayer has an assortment of cheating problems that weren't really a big deal in the early days of online multiplayer, but certainly are now, in the days of ranking systems and very competitive gaming. The obvious one is that the client knows where everything is on the map, even when hidden by fog-of-war - so client-side hacks can reveal that. A hacked client can easily desync the game too, or stall it and cause it to time out if the player is losing.