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No, that page is misleading because it doesn't include unaffilated developers. Red Hat may be the biggest corporate contributor, but most contributors are actua

No, that page is misleading because it doesn't include unaffilated developers. Red Hat may be the biggest corporate contributor, but most contributors are actually not affiliated with any corporation. I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. They would still be the "volunteers" in that case. Insisting anyone meet some threshold of features for a random free product they give away is leaning heavily into toxic entitlement. I suspect you know this full well. This isn't just about a disagreement and it's not that they're putting their interests above "the user." A corporate contributor puts the interests of their paying customers over anyone else. That's how they work. But then you immediately jump from there to equating "the user" with your own personal choice. Can you not see how this is a very trolly way to approach conversation about anything? Just be clearer next time and say it's not to your liking and be done with it, you don't need to turn every conversation about this into a Red Hat flame war. And before someone makes more trollish comments accusing me of "defending Red Hat," I don't have any connection to them. It's just bad conversation to have people trying to turn every comment thread into a hate-fest directed at some corporation. Yeah I get it, capitalism is terrible. But isn't this what we want companies to be doing? Taking labor their customers paid for and giving it back for free to open source projects?

yywwbbn 4y ago
It still seems pretty strange to me that you’re so fervently denying anyone the right to criticize the design and UX choices made in GNOME just because it’s available for free (unless you’re a RedHat customer I guess..). I assume most people who do that genuinely want GNOME to be improved than due to malice or anything else. What’s wrong about that? If I was working on GNOME I’d definitely prefer users who share their views and opinions to those who just silently quit without saying anything.
- QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
  I never denied anyone that. Go criticize all you want. Just please stop with the conspiracy theories, it's bad discussion. You don't have to be a Red Hat customer, you could pay any other Linux consultancy.
  - yywwbbn 4y ago
    The Red Hat but was supposed to be sarcasm…
yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
No, 50k commits is from the higher up graph that includes unaffiliated commits. > I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. And I say that's not what that word means, unless you truly believe that no reasonable person could actually disagree with you (in which case you'd be factually wrong, but using the word correctly). You're allowed to claim that GNOME/RH giving software away for free makes it illegitimate to critize them, and I'm allowed to say that's nonsense and the software still sucks. Trolling, if you'll forgive my quoting urban dictionary, is > making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument This isn't random (as an ex-user, I have very real, very strong opinions about GNOME), I don't care about your emotions, and I didn't intend this to be a fight. So no, not trolling. [0] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling
- QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
  The comment on the higher up graph still says "I've excluded personal accounts" so a lot of data is just missing there. I'm not saying it's illegitimate to criticize anything. Please don't put words in my mouth. This is the entire original comment I was responding to: >What volunteers? GNOME is a Red Hat project. There's no legitimate criticism in this comment. If you do have real opinions, you never communicated them. The only thing here is the usual substanceless FUD and complaining about Red Hat that pops in every Linux thread. It's bad discussion. You did add some more information afterwards, but your original comment didn't have that. This is why it's trolling. Do you see it now? Next time, lead with the information. Please don't just make snarky comments. I really don't get this vehement denial when it's right there. It was a snarky comment, judging by the language you're still using I think you know that it was snarky. You can just own it and we can move on. EDIT: And about being an ex-user. People and projects change over time. It just happens. That's life. It's fine to have strong opinions and be passionate but you're letting that passion take you in a bad, angry direction. For yourself, please don't do that. It's like getting upset about a divorce, you have to find some way to deal with it that doesn't involve stewing over the person who left. And that analogy is stretching it because unless you make an effort to get involved and get to know people personally, then open source developers are not your friends. They're just random people giving away free stuff on the internet in a parasocial relationship not unlike anyone else you might encounter on social media. It's not worth it to bother having strong opinions if that's the case. I can tell you, the endless Linux flame wars complaining that software XYZ sucks aren't a place where good productive discussion happens.
lelanthran 4y ago
> I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. They would still be the "volunteers" in that case. Insisting anyone meet some threshold of features for a random free product they give away is leaning heavily into toxic entitlement. Negative feedback when removing existing features is not "trolling", nor "toxic entitlement". In fact, it's expected, when you remove a much used, much loved feature, that you're going to get criticism for doing so, even more so when there is strong indication that there will be no replacement for that feature now or in the future. Gnome has been steadily dropping features and then attacking anyone who complains (much like you are doing so). Mostly the gnome supporters imply that the complainers are just plain stupid (don't know any better, are ignorant, have poor habits, etc): from https://www.osnews.com/story/7344/opinion-why-users-blame-the-spatial-nautilius/ https://www.osnews.com/story/7344/opinion-why-users-blame-th... > Browser-mode file browsers hide the lack of thought and organisation in the filesystem structure; spatial ones do not. > And now, when the time to ressurect the spatial ideas has finally come, people accustomed to the bad interface design try to defend it only because for the past years they have been using it! TBH, if I had time, I could compile a substantial list of similar insults from the Gnome devs themselves, when closing issues as "wontfix".
- QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
  You can criticize all you want, but I notice you neglected to share any of that actual criticism in your comment. Closing a bug as wontfix isn't an insult, please stop taking that personally. All open source projects reject bugs sometimes. Every project gets to determine their own threshold for what features they remove and what bugs they close as wontfix. All projects reject bugs. There's a comment from down thread about KDE developers doing exactly the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34395682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34395682 But you also have to make sure your criticism is good. Just complaining that a feature was removed "because I was using it" is not a useful criticism. I learn nothing from reading that. You have to actually explain why you needed the feature, how you were using it, and why the newer options don't work for you. >Mostly the gnome supporters imply that the complainers are just plain stupid I don't see the author claiming anyone's stupid in that article. This is what the author says: >it is just bad file organisation coupled with a bunch of old bad habits And maybe on that note, you could consider that designers know a lot more about the habits of users than a random drive-by commenter, considering they study it for a living?

yywwbbn 4y ago

It still seems pretty strange to me that you’re so fervently denying anyone the right to criticize the design and UX choices made in GNOME just because it’s available for free (unless you’re a RedHat customer I guess..). I assume most people who do that genuinely want GNOME to be improved than due to malice or anything else. What’s wrong about that? If I was working on GNOME I’d definitely prefer users who share their views and opinions to those who just silently quit without saying anything.

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
I never denied anyone that. Go criticize all you want. Just please stop with the conspiracy theories, it's bad discussion. You don't have to be a Red Hat customer, you could pay any other Linux consultancy.
- yywwbbn 4y ago
  The Red Hat but was supposed to be sarcasm…

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

No, 50k commits is from the higher up graph that includes unaffiliated commits. > I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. And I say that's not what that word means, unless you truly believe that no reasonable person could actually disagree with you (in which case you'd be factually wrong, but using the word correctly). You're allowed to claim that GNOME/RH giving software away for free makes it illegitimate to critize them, and I'm allowed to say that's nonsense and the software still sucks. Trolling, if you'll forgive my quoting urban dictionary, is > making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument This isn't random (as an ex-user, I have very real, very strong opinions about GNOME), I don't care about your emotions, and I didn't intend this to be a fight. So no, not trolling. [0] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
The comment on the higher up graph still says "I've excluded personal accounts" so a lot of data is just missing there. I'm not saying it's illegitimate to criticize anything. Please don't put words in my mouth. This is the entire original comment I was responding to: >What volunteers? GNOME is a Red Hat project. There's no legitimate criticism in this comment. If you do have real opinions, you never communicated them. The only thing here is the usual substanceless FUD and complaining about Red Hat that pops in every Linux thread. It's bad discussion. You did add some more information afterwards, but your original comment didn't have that. This is why it's trolling. Do you see it now? Next time, lead with the information. Please don't just make snarky comments. I really don't get this vehement denial when it's right there. It was a snarky comment, judging by the language you're still using I think you know that it was snarky. You can just own it and we can move on. EDIT: And about being an ex-user. People and projects change over time. It just happens. That's life. It's fine to have strong opinions and be passionate but you're letting that passion take you in a bad, angry direction. For yourself, please don't do that. It's like getting upset about a divorce, you have to find some way to deal with it that doesn't involve stewing over the person who left. And that analogy is stretching it because unless you make an effort to get involved and get to know people personally, then open source developers are not your friends. They're just random people giving away free stuff on the internet in a parasocial relationship not unlike anyone else you might encounter on social media. It's not worth it to bother having strong opinions if that's the case. I can tell you, the endless Linux flame wars complaining that software XYZ sucks aren't a place where good productive discussion happens.

lelanthran 4y ago

> I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. They would still be the "volunteers" in that case. Insisting anyone meet some threshold of features for a random free product they give away is leaning heavily into toxic entitlement. Negative feedback when removing existing features is not "trolling", nor "toxic entitlement". In fact, it's expected, when you remove a much used, much loved feature, that you're going to get criticism for doing so, even more so when there is strong indication that there will be no replacement for that feature now or in the future. Gnome has been steadily dropping features and then attacking anyone who complains (much like you are doing so). Mostly the gnome supporters imply that the complainers are just plain stupid (don't know any better, are ignorant, have poor habits, etc): from https://www.osnews.com/story/7344/opinion-why-users-blame-the-spatial-nautilius/ https://www.osnews.com/story/7344/opinion-why-users-blame-th... > Browser-mode file browsers hide the lack of thought and organisation in the filesystem structure; spatial ones do not. > And now, when the time to ressurect the spatial ideas has finally come, people accustomed to the bad interface design try to defend it only because for the past years they have been using it! TBH, if I had time, I could compile a substantial list of similar insults from the Gnome devs themselves, when closing issues as "wontfix".

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
You can criticize all you want, but I notice you neglected to share any of that actual criticism in your comment. Closing a bug as wontfix isn't an insult, please stop taking that personally. All open source projects reject bugs sometimes. Every project gets to determine their own threshold for what features they remove and what bugs they close as wontfix. All projects reject bugs. There's a comment from down thread about KDE developers doing exactly the same thing: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34395682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34395682 But you also have to make sure your criticism is good. Just complaining that a feature was removed "because I was using it" is not a useful criticism. I learn nothing from reading that. You have to actually explain why you needed the feature, how you were using it, and why the newer options don't work for you. >Mostly the gnome supporters imply that the complainers are just plain stupid I don't see the author claiming anyone's stupid in that article. This is what the author says: >it is just bad file organisation coupled with a bunch of old bad habits And maybe on that note, you could consider that designers know a lot more about the habits of users than a random drive-by commenter, considering they study it for a living?