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I want to offer a bit of a different perspective than the one I'm seeing in other comments which (totally reasonably) wonder if a) JFK is too busy or needs some

by jMyles 4y ago

I want to offer a bit of a different perspective than the one I'm seeing in other comments which (totally reasonably) wonder if a) JFK is too busy or needs some safety upgrades and b) whether voice contact with ATC is the best way to reduce risk during unusual events like incursions. I'm just an amateur enthusiast who listens to a lot of ATC, so take this assessment with that grain of salt: JFK has long had a unique subculture with respect to ATC (embodied most famously by the flourish and wit of Kennedy Steve, but often apparent from the entire ATC corps on both ground and tower during busy times), and strange as it sounds, it might be a part of what averted this disaster. At other airports, it seems to me that it's totally possible that this goes far worse. The controller did a few things that are unusual in ATC, but not totally unheard of at JFK in particular: * Completely changed tone of voice. He yelled into the mic. That doesn't happen often in ATC. * Yelled "SHIT!" to open his transmission. * Spoke in a way that emphasized speed and urgency even if it cost a little clarity (eg, some news outlets have transcribed "cancel takeoff clearance" as "cancel takeoff plans" because of how intense and fast the controller is yelling) Assuming the aircraft were on a collision course (something we'll probably know for sure only when the FAA report comes out), this was less than 1.5 seconds (perhaps less than 1 second) from an impact. A different transmission, like you might hear at say LHR or LAX, where the controller keeps a monotone and simply says, "Delta 1943 cancel takeoff clearance" might not have gotten the attention so quickly and helped the Delta pilot initiate the reject so rapidly. I think that this incident is an example of a) how JFK's unique ATC swagger may not be just for show, but may actually be a part of the safety culture of that airport, and b) how effective voice contact with ATC is at achieving rapid response from pilots. Ideally, this investigation prompts some study into what might seem like a silly topic: whether the "New York attitude" of JFK controllers has a positive safety impact that isn't felt elsewhere.

throwayyy479087 4y ago
Fantastic comment. Also on the language front, New York English is spoken faster and with more emphasis - likely to be helpful here compared to say, Texan.
jonnybgood 4y ago
Does this same subculture apply to LGA?
- jMyles 4y ago
  It's hard to say, because it's such a different operation and different scale. LGA has two 7,000 foot runways, and no CBP (meaning very few long-haul flights are landing there), as well as all the perimeter rules and curfews... listening to LGA ATC feels more like listening to a small quircky airport, at least to me. So it's hard to make any kind of comparison. It will be more telling to see how things settled after the construction is finished.
murderfs 4y ago
> The controller did a few things that are unusual in ATC, but not totally unheard of at JFK in particular: > * Completely changed tone of voice. He yelled into the mic. That doesn't happen often in ATC. > * Yelled "SHIT!" to open his transmission. > * Spoke in a way that emphasized speed and urgency even if it cost a little clarity (eg, some news outlets have transcribed "cancel takeoff clearance" as "cancel takeoff plans" because of how intense and fast the controller is yelling) I think this was actually relatively subdued. There was a similar incident at Chicago Midway in 2015 where the ATC command was "Delta 1328 STOP STOP STOP": https://youtu.be/b26NcJCLZl4?t=82 https://youtu.be/b26NcJCLZl4?t=82
- jMyles 4y ago
  The phenomenon I'm describing as palpable at JFK ATC is not dependent on volume or vocal intensity (both of which are clearly palpable in the recording you've linked). Sp. leaving aside whether or not it's more "subdued" (they're both unusual in tone, I'm sure we can agree), the JFK controller did something that the Midway controller didn't: repeated the entire transmission including callsign, in case his first tx had been stepped on, unbeknownst to him. He was able to do this in such a quick timeframe because he was employing the phenomenon I'm describing. Dialing deep into it: the way he allowed his full NY accent to come out ("cleh-ance" instead of "clearance", for example) delivered the full message at a very high signal to the ear _twice_ in about the same span as the Midway controller (while yes, using a louder volume) got a less clear message across only once. I dream of being an ATC. It's something I'll do later in life in the context of a multiplayer game, I think.

by jMyles 4y ago

throwayyy479087 4y ago

Fantastic comment. Also on the language front, New York English is spoken faster and with more emphasis - likely to be helpful here compared to say, Texan.

jonnybgood 4y ago

Does this same subculture apply to LGA?

jMyles 4y ago
It's hard to say, because it's such a different operation and different scale. LGA has two 7,000 foot runways, and no CBP (meaning very few long-haul flights are landing there), as well as all the perimeter rules and curfews... listening to LGA ATC feels more like listening to a small quircky airport, at least to me. So it's hard to make any kind of comparison. It will be more telling to see how things settled after the construction is finished.

murderfs 4y ago

> The controller did a few things that are unusual in ATC, but not totally unheard of at JFK in particular: > * Completely changed tone of voice. He yelled into the mic. That doesn't happen often in ATC. > * Yelled "SHIT!" to open his transmission. > * Spoke in a way that emphasized speed and urgency even if it cost a little clarity (eg, some news outlets have transcribed "cancel takeoff clearance" as "cancel takeoff plans" because of how intense and fast the controller is yelling) I think this was actually relatively subdued. There was a similar incident at Chicago Midway in 2015 where the ATC command was "Delta 1328 STOP STOP STOP": https://youtu.be/b26NcJCLZl4?t=82 https://youtu.be/b26NcJCLZl4?t=82

jMyles 4y ago
The phenomenon I'm describing as palpable at JFK ATC is not dependent on volume or vocal intensity (both of which are clearly palpable in the recording you've linked). Sp. leaving aside whether or not it's more "subdued" (they're both unusual in tone, I'm sure we can agree), the JFK controller did something that the Midway controller didn't: repeated the entire transmission including callsign, in case his first tx had been stepped on, unbeknownst to him. He was able to do this in such a quick timeframe because he was employing the phenomenon I'm describing. Dialing deep into it: the way he allowed his full NY accent to come out ("cleh-ance" instead of "clearance", for example) delivered the full message at a very high signal to the ear _twice_ in about the same span as the Midway controller (while yes, using a louder volume) got a less clear message across only once. I dream of being an ATC. It's something I'll do later in life in the context of a multiplayer game, I think.