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Please stop with the trollish responses. Even if that was true (it's not), what makes you think Red Hat wants to start paying those costs?

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
Yeah, see, disagreeing with you and trolling are different things. Trolling would be more like creating an account just to make personal attacks and defend RH. Anyways. This is a pain to get hard numbers for but https://hpjansson.org/blag/2020/12/16/on-the-graying-of-gnome/ https://hpjansson.org/blag/2020/12/16/on-the-graying-of-gnom... seems decent enough; based on that, @redhat.com represents ~13,000 commits out of ~50,000 commits with all other groups combined not even coming close, which means that even as a technical minority overall RH has a massive amount of influence. Or as the author puts it, > Top 15 affiliations again, but now ordered by commit counts. It's safe to say that GNOME is dependent on paid developers in a big way. Specifically, and to no one's surprise, it leans heavily on Red Hat. So yes, it is true. > what makes you think Red Hat wants to start paying those costs? Well no, I'm sure they don't want to. And hey, it's Red Hat's devs, so at some level I can't blame them for serving RH's interests above the user. Just as they can't blame me for abandoning their function-poor toy desktop environment.
- QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
  No, that page is misleading because it doesn't include unaffilated developers. Red Hat may be the biggest corporate contributor, but most contributors are actually not affiliated with any corporation. I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. They would still be the "volunteers" in that case. Insisting anyone meet some threshold of features for a random free product they give away is leaning heavily into toxic entitlement. I suspect you know this full well. This isn't just about a disagreement and it's not that they're putting their interests above "the user." A corporate contributor puts the interests of their paying customers over anyone else. That's how they work. But then you immediately jump from there to equating "the user" with your own personal choice. Can you not see how this is a very trolly way to approach conversation about anything? Just be clearer next time and say it's not to your liking and be done with it, you don't need to turn every conversation about this into a Red Hat flame war. And before someone makes more trollish comments accusing me of "defending Red Hat," I don't have any connection to them. It's just bad conversation to have people trying to turn every comment thread into a hate-fest directed at some corporation. Yeah I get it, capitalism is terrible. But isn't this what we want companies to be doing? Taking labor their customers paid for and giving it back for free to open source projects?
  - yywwbbn 4y ago
    It still seems pretty strange to me that you’re so fervently denying anyone the right to criticize the design and UX choices made in GNOME just because it’s available for free (unless you’re a RedHat customer I guess..). I assume most people who do that genuinely want GNOME to be improved than due to malice or anything else. What’s wrong about that? If I was working on GNOME I’d definitely prefer users who share their views and opinions to those who just silently quit without saying anything.
    - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
      I never denied anyone that. Go criticize all you want. Just please stop with the conspiracy theories, it's bad discussion. You don't have to be a Red Hat customer, you could pay any other Linux consultancy.
      - yywwbbn 4y ago
        The Red Hat but was supposed to be sarcasm…
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    No, 50k commits is from the higher up graph that includes unaffiliated commits. > I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. And I say that's not what that word means, unless you truly believe that no reasonable person could actually disagree with you (in which case you'd be factually wrong, but using the word correctly). You're allowed to claim that GNOME/RH giving software away for free makes it illegitimate to critize them, and I'm allowed to say that's nonsense and the software still sucks. Trolling, if you'll forgive my quoting urban dictionary, is > making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument This isn't random (as an ex-user, I have very real, very strong opinions about GNOME), I don't care about your emotions, and I didn't intend this to be a fight. So no, not trolling. [0] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago

Yeah, see, disagreeing with you and trolling are different things. Trolling would be more like creating an account just to make personal attacks and defend RH. Anyways. This is a pain to get hard numbers for but https://hpjansson.org/blag/2020/12/16/on-the-graying-of-gnome/ https://hpjansson.org/blag/2020/12/16/on-the-graying-of-gnom... seems decent enough; based on that, @redhat.com represents ~13,000 commits out of ~50,000 commits with all other groups combined not even coming close, which means that even as a technical minority overall RH has a massive amount of influence. Or as the author puts it, > Top 15 affiliations again, but now ordered by commit counts. It's safe to say that GNOME is dependent on paid developers in a big way. Specifically, and to no one's surprise, it leans heavily on Red Hat. So yes, it is true. > what makes you think Red Hat wants to start paying those costs? Well no, I'm sure they don't want to. And hey, it's Red Hat's devs, so at some level I can't blame them for serving RH's interests above the user. Just as they can't blame me for abandoning their function-poor toy desktop environment.

QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
No, that page is misleading because it doesn't include unaffilated developers. Red Hat may be the biggest corporate contributor, but most contributors are actually not affiliated with any corporation. I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. They would still be the "volunteers" in that case. Insisting anyone meet some threshold of features for a random free product they give away is leaning heavily into toxic entitlement. I suspect you know this full well. This isn't just about a disagreement and it's not that they're putting their interests above "the user." A corporate contributor puts the interests of their paying customers over anyone else. That's how they work. But then you immediately jump from there to equating "the user" with your own personal choice. Can you not see how this is a very trolly way to approach conversation about anything? Just be clearer next time and say it's not to your liking and be done with it, you don't need to turn every conversation about this into a Red Hat flame war. And before someone makes more trollish comments accusing me of "defending Red Hat," I don't have any connection to them. It's just bad conversation to have people trying to turn every comment thread into a hate-fest directed at some corporation. Yeah I get it, capitalism is terrible. But isn't this what we want companies to be doing? Taking labor their customers paid for and giving it back for free to open source projects?
- yywwbbn 4y ago
  It still seems pretty strange to me that you’re so fervently denying anyone the right to criticize the design and UX choices made in GNOME just because it’s available for free (unless you’re a RedHat customer I guess..). I assume most people who do that genuinely want GNOME to be improved than due to malice or anything else. What’s wrong about that? If I was working on GNOME I’d definitely prefer users who share their views and opinions to those who just silently quit without saying anything.
  - QUrprUd1nCeicw 4y ago
    I never denied anyone that. Go criticize all you want. Just please stop with the conspiracy theories, it's bad discussion. You don't have to be a Red Hat customer, you could pay any other Linux consultancy.
    - yywwbbn 4y ago
      The Red Hat but was supposed to be sarcasm…
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  No, 50k commits is from the higher up graph that includes unaffiliated commits. > I say you're trolling because even if it were entirely a corporate Red Hat project, Red Hat still wouldn't owe anyone any features. And I say that's not what that word means, unless you truly believe that no reasonable person could actually disagree with you (in which case you'd be factually wrong, but using the word correctly). You're allowed to claim that GNOME/RH giving software away for free makes it illegitimate to critize them, and I'm allowed to say that's nonsense and the software still sucks. Trolling, if you'll forgive my quoting urban dictionary, is > making random unsolicited and/or controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument This isn't random (as an ex-user, I have very real, very strong opinions about GNOME), I don't care about your emotions, and I didn't intend this to be a fight. So no, not trolling. [0] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Trolling