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It may be also worth noting that the "Separation of Church and State" people often quote is from a poem that a politician was reciting. To my knowledge that co

It may be also worth noting that the "Separation of Church and State" people often quote is from a poem that a politician was reciting. To my knowledge that concept has never been codified in law.

edgyquant 4y ago
It is in the first amendment. That is, the US explicitly can not force all citizens into a single church as was common in England where they were Catholic for half a millennia and then replaced that with the Church of England. People love to bring up “it’s actually not in the constitution” as if explicitly saying that in anyway detracts from the fact that a foundational principle of the nation /separated/ church from state.
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  That does prevent forcing a particular religion on people but it does not in any way prevent the mix of religion and government. As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls using taxpayer funds. There are many laws derived from Christian ethics and values. There are also unwritten concepts that are effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. That is not written anywhere to my knowledge. But you are right, they can not force someone to be Christian.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    You’re completely ignoring the fact that the government not forcing a single church is the separation of church and state being talked about
    - Spivak 4y ago
      “We can make Christianity the de facto law of the land, have federal holidays be Christian holidays, have the interests of the church intertwined with that of the state, have “secular” state institutions mirror christian sacraments, have our pledge of allegiance essentially be a declaration of our country being Christian — but hey, they can’t make you go to church on Sunday” is not exactly what one might call a strong separation.
      - WeylandYutani 4y ago
        Is there an alternative to swearing on the Bible for atheist politicians in the US?
        edgyquant 4y ago
        You can swear on the constitution or any book you please
      - edgyquant 4y ago
        American culture is Christian due to it descending from Europeans. No shit. I never said I wanted to listen to your opinions about the modern state of religion in America. I told you a fact, that church and state are separated by law in this nation and it’s encoded into the bill of rights. That you dislike American culture having evolved from a Christian one is your own axe to grind clearly.
        trasz3 4y ago
        American culture descended from Christian fundamentalism, not Christianity. It’s a huge difference and it shows all over the place in how bigoted US laws are, compared to most of Europe.
        CamperBob2 4y ago
        Incorrect. What we now call "Christian fundamentalism" did not exist prior to the 1800s.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    >> As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. You watch too much TV. Most courts do not have you swear "on" anything, you simple raise your hand "Swear or affirm under the pains and penalties of perjury you will tell the truth" some do not even add the "under the pains and penalties of perjury" if there are any courts in the US still using a Bible they are in the EXTREME minority. >There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls Pretty sure that is also not true... Governments have allowed the installation of such things but they are often funded by private groups. I would love a citation where the GOVERNMENT paid for out of tax payer money a religious installations is say they last 20 years.. (paid for, not approved) >>effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. Citation... Parole Boards often require the offender to Admit guilt and ask for forgiveness, this has being interpreted by extreme anti-religious groups as them "requiring people to become born again Christians"
  - themitigating 4y ago
    You don't have to swear on a bible
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The Constitution says under Article VI: "but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
WeylandYutani 4y ago
It only works in countries were the majority are atheist. A Constitution, for all it's brilliant eloquence, is just words.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  No then the enforced religion just becomes atheism
phpisthebest 4y ago
No it is from Jefferson, whereby he was remarking that the first amendment "thus building a wall of separation between Church & State" in response to a church writing him a letter about oppression they were feeling at the hands of a state government. It was not a Poem.

It may be also worth noting that the "Separation of Church and State" people often quote is from a poem that a politician was reciting. To my knowledge that concept has never been codified in law.

edgyquant 4y ago

It is in the first amendment. That is, the US explicitly can not force all citizens into a single church as was common in England where they were Catholic for half a millennia and then replaced that with the Church of England. People love to bring up “it’s actually not in the constitution” as if explicitly saying that in anyway detracts from the fact that a foundational principle of the nation /separated/ church from state.

LinuxBender 4y ago
That does prevent forcing a particular religion on people but it does not in any way prevent the mix of religion and government. As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls using taxpayer funds. There are many laws derived from Christian ethics and values. There are also unwritten concepts that are effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. That is not written anywhere to my knowledge. But you are right, they can not force someone to be Christian.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  You’re completely ignoring the fact that the government not forcing a single church is the separation of church and state being talked about
  - Spivak 4y ago
    “We can make Christianity the de facto law of the land, have federal holidays be Christian holidays, have the interests of the church intertwined with that of the state, have “secular” state institutions mirror christian sacraments, have our pledge of allegiance essentially be a declaration of our country being Christian — but hey, they can’t make you go to church on Sunday” is not exactly what one might call a strong separation.
    - WeylandYutani 4y ago
      Is there an alternative to swearing on the Bible for atheist politicians in the US?
      - edgyquant 4y ago
        You can swear on the constitution or any book you please
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      American culture is Christian due to it descending from Europeans. No shit. I never said I wanted to listen to your opinions about the modern state of religion in America. I told you a fact, that church and state are separated by law in this nation and it’s encoded into the bill of rights. That you dislike American culture having evolved from a Christian one is your own axe to grind clearly.
      - trasz3 4y ago
        American culture descended from Christian fundamentalism, not Christianity. It’s a huge difference and it shows all over the place in how bigoted US laws are, compared to most of Europe.
        CamperBob2 4y ago
        Incorrect. What we now call "Christian fundamentalism" did not exist prior to the 1800s.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  >> As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. You watch too much TV. Most courts do not have you swear "on" anything, you simple raise your hand "Swear or affirm under the pains and penalties of perjury you will tell the truth" some do not even add the "under the pains and penalties of perjury" if there are any courts in the US still using a Bible they are in the EXTREME minority. >There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls Pretty sure that is also not true... Governments have allowed the installation of such things but they are often funded by private groups. I would love a citation where the GOVERNMENT paid for out of tax payer money a religious installations is say they last 20 years.. (paid for, not approved) >>effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. Citation... Parole Boards often require the offender to Admit guilt and ask for forgiveness, this has being interpreted by extreme anti-religious groups as them "requiring people to become born again Christians"
- themitigating 4y ago
  You don't have to swear on a bible
WalterBright 4y ago
The Constitution says under Article VI: "but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

WeylandYutani 4y ago

It only works in countries were the majority are atheist. A Constitution, for all it's brilliant eloquence, is just words.

edgyquant 4y ago
No then the enforced religion just becomes atheism

phpisthebest 4y ago

No it is from Jefferson, whereby he was remarking that the first amendment "thus building a wall of separation between Church & State" in response to a church writing him a letter about oppression they were feeling at the hands of a state government. It was not a Poem.