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A long time ago, some Jewish coworkers told me about Saudi Arabia as very extreme (a lot of frank discussions about Israel’s issues, Palestinians, and the middl

A long time ago, some Jewish coworkers told me about Saudi Arabia as very extreme (a lot of frank discussions about Israel’s issues, Palestinians, and the middle east). Naive as I was, I didn’t believe them at the time but time has proven them right.

edgyquant 4y ago
Well this was because you were completely ignorant of Saudi Arabia and the peninsula in general then. No one has ever mistook the Saudis for non-extremists and they’re liberal compared to the population they govern.
- jacooper 4y ago
  Not anymore, certainly not since MBS arrived. Its getting closer and closer to Dubai there.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    Faint praise.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      I really didn't mean it as praise, but I can see how one might read it as such.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    AFAICT, MBS himself is not a religious extremist, just a power-hungry tyrant who doesn't tolerate dissent. There's a difference. The dynamic has long been that the royals running the place are much more liberal than the Wahhabis who enforce the religion, and have slowly been trying to liberalize things. It's another great example of why democracy isn't some kind of silver bullet that will magically make populations accept socially liberal values. If Saudi Arabia lost its monarchy and became democratic, it'd be even worse than it is now.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      > If Saudi Arabia lost its monarchy and became democratic, it'd be even worse than it is now. Worse for you, but better for its citizens, which is the whole point of Democracy. Its not democracy only when the west likes it. And the average person there isn't as extreme as you think.
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        >Worse for you, but better for its citizens, which is the whole point of Democracy. Of course, I meant "worse" from a Western liberal point-of-view, which I would think should be obvious here. My whole point there is that Western liberals seem to usually think that if people in oppressive regimes only had democratic governments, then they'd magically turn into countries like Norway. So they try installing democratic governments in places like Afghanistan and then are shocked when these countries don't turn into clones of liberal Western democracies.
        blhblah12345 4y ago
        [flagged]
        jacooper 4y ago
        [flagged]
        blhblah12345 4y ago
        You know, I've never actually been on reddit? HN and Slashdot were the only sites of that format I ever visited.
        blhblah12345 4y ago
        > Sure, they just created Algebra, cameras, algorithms and many foundation of our modern world. What a coincidence for a society that hates modernity! Algebra is what, 3,000 years old? That's your idea of modernity? Really? > So you stayed in a region you unfathomably hate for 20 years for a job you could've done anywhere? And you didn't even pick rich countries either, starting to sound like someone who's just making stuff up. You're putting words in my mouth. I enjoy teaching refugees and trying to convert them to atheism, I love the geographic and landscape here, and I love my queer/gay/liberal/artistic friends and family here. I just dislike the religion and the religious. I feel the exact same way about christianity, judaism and hinduism. It's great being here. All my friends here are either expats or liberal beyaz turkular who work in entertainment, and feel the same way about Islam and religion as I do.
- nobodyandproud 4y ago
  Like I said, I was naive. But consider that I’m representative of the average American of a certain age and older; whose interests begin and end with oil and our involvement because of it.
- acdha 4y ago
  I think this is somewhat understandable given the “Our allies, the Saudis” rhetoric common in the Reagan/Bush era. American politicians pronounced them friends and the “tough on crimes” ones were more than a little positive about their policies - read something like a Tom Clancy novel from the time and it’s pretty hard to miss.
rippercushions 4y ago
It's a bit more complicated than that. MBS throwing the book at dissenters have very little to do with Palestine or Israel, and very much to do with MBS's increasing personal paranoia and lack of tolerance for even the mildest form of dissent. There are people getting jailed for completely non-political dissent like daring to advocate for female drivers before the government itself made a policy U-turn on that. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35090601/saudi-activist-prison-women-drive/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35090601/saudi-activist-p... Saudi society itself is far from homogeneous. The largely Western-educated royalty is (was?) in a marriage of convenience with the Wahhabi Sunni extremists who lead the religious establishment, there's a growing middle class that's not particularly extreme in any way, oppressed native groups like the Shia, a huge population of completely powerless and frequently abused foreign workers keeping the kingdom running, etc etc.
- nobodyandproud 4y ago
  My discussions were decades before MBS. The US tended to downplay the issues in SA-we need them—so unless someone digs into the history and region it was a bit of a don’t ask and don’t tell. MBS behavior has made even someone as politically naive as me see what SA really is (and isn’t).
- blhblah12345 4y ago
  His level of violence is the only distinction between MBS, Tayipp, and the rest of the islamic ethnostates. Otherwise everything else is true in every muslim nation from Indonesia to Albania.
jacooper 4y ago
The last person you should ask about anything Arab related is anybody connected to the Israeli occupation. Its like asking a russian army general about Ukraine.

edgyquant 4y ago

Well this was because you were completely ignorant of Saudi Arabia and the peninsula in general then. No one has ever mistook the Saudis for non-extremists and they’re liberal compared to the population they govern.

jacooper 4y ago
Not anymore, certainly not since MBS arrived. Its getting closer and closer to Dubai there.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  Faint praise.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    I really didn't mean it as praise, but I can see how one might read it as such.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  AFAICT, MBS himself is not a religious extremist, just a power-hungry tyrant who doesn't tolerate dissent. There's a difference. The dynamic has long been that the royals running the place are much more liberal than the Wahhabis who enforce the religion, and have slowly been trying to liberalize things. It's another great example of why democracy isn't some kind of silver bullet that will magically make populations accept socially liberal values. If Saudi Arabia lost its monarchy and became democratic, it'd be even worse than it is now.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    > If Saudi Arabia lost its monarchy and became democratic, it'd be even worse than it is now. Worse for you, but better for its citizens, which is the whole point of Democracy. Its not democracy only when the west likes it. And the average person there isn't as extreme as you think.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      >Worse for you, but better for its citizens, which is the whole point of Democracy. Of course, I meant "worse" from a Western liberal point-of-view, which I would think should be obvious here. My whole point there is that Western liberals seem to usually think that if people in oppressive regimes only had democratic governments, then they'd magically turn into countries like Norway. So they try installing democratic governments in places like Afghanistan and then are shocked when these countries don't turn into clones of liberal Western democracies.
      - blhblah12345 4y ago
        [flagged]
        jacooper 4y ago
        [flagged]
        blhblah12345 4y ago
        You know, I've never actually been on reddit? HN and Slashdot were the only sites of that format I ever visited.
        blhblah12345 4y ago
        > Sure, they just created Algebra, cameras, algorithms and many foundation of our modern world. What a coincidence for a society that hates modernity! Algebra is what, 3,000 years old? That's your idea of modernity? Really? > So you stayed in a region you unfathomably hate for 20 years for a job you could've done anywhere? And you didn't even pick rich countries either, starting to sound like someone who's just making stuff up. You're putting words in my mouth. I enjoy teaching refugees and trying to convert them to atheism, I love the geographic and landscape here, and I love my queer/gay/liberal/artistic friends and family here. I just dislike the religion and the religious. I feel the exact same way about christianity, judaism and hinduism. It's great being here. All my friends here are either expats or liberal beyaz turkular who work in entertainment, and feel the same way about Islam and religion as I do.
nobodyandproud 4y ago
Like I said, I was naive. But consider that I’m representative of the average American of a certain age and older; whose interests begin and end with oil and our involvement because of it.
acdha 4y ago
I think this is somewhat understandable given the “Our allies, the Saudis” rhetoric common in the Reagan/Bush era. American politicians pronounced them friends and the “tough on crimes” ones were more than a little positive about their policies - read something like a Tom Clancy novel from the time and it’s pretty hard to miss.

rippercushions 4y ago

It's a bit more complicated than that. MBS throwing the book at dissenters have very little to do with Palestine or Israel, and very much to do with MBS's increasing personal paranoia and lack of tolerance for even the mildest form of dissent. There are people getting jailed for completely non-political dissent like daring to advocate for female drivers before the government itself made a policy U-turn on that. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35090601/saudi-activist-prison-women-drive/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35090601/saudi-activist-p... Saudi society itself is far from homogeneous. The largely Western-educated royalty is (was?) in a marriage of convenience with the Wahhabi Sunni extremists who lead the religious establishment, there's a growing middle class that's not particularly extreme in any way, oppressed native groups like the Shia, a huge population of completely powerless and frequently abused foreign workers keeping the kingdom running, etc etc.

nobodyandproud 4y ago
My discussions were decades before MBS. The US tended to downplay the issues in SA-we need them—so unless someone digs into the history and region it was a bit of a don’t ask and don’t tell. MBS behavior has made even someone as politically naive as me see what SA really is (and isn’t).
blhblah12345 4y ago
His level of violence is the only distinction between MBS, Tayipp, and the rest of the islamic ethnostates. Otherwise everything else is true in every muslim nation from Indonesia to Albania.

jacooper 4y ago

The last person you should ask about anything Arab related is anybody connected to the Israeli occupation. Its like asking a russian army general about Ukraine.