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My understanding is that there is a shit ton that is and always has been happening in this area. Air safety is the leading sector in standards for safety traini
by scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
My understanding is that there is a shit ton that is and always has been happening in this area. Air safety is the leading sector in standards for safety training.
We are relying on checklists, procedures, surveillance tech, simulation training, certification, re-certification etc. etc. No other industry has put in as much thought into these problems. Except for maybe the military.
Source: I had the opportunity to meet and participate in crisis resource management training for surgeons held by a trainer from pilot training industry. Everyone’s mind was blown because surgery is comparatively in the Middle Ages.
Based on seeing and hearing about it I believe that more ideas have been studied and tested than you’d expect. Cognitive overload in crisis situations is a well researched problem. Probably hard finding links on the subject though.
- edgyquant 4y agoSpace flight is the one industry with a better track record I’d say.
- hilbertseries 4y agoI wonder by what metric this is true. For instance, I’m sure the fatality per flight of manned space flight is an order of magnitude worse than commercial air flight in the US.
- perihelions 4y agoEasily *six* orders of magnitude. STS saw two crashes in O(10^2) flights (and SpaceX has much smaller numbers still). The US handles O(10^7) commercial flights per year, none of which crashed in 10+ years (I think). https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers
- edgyquant 4y agoRidiculous. This is comparing the modern commercial private space flight industry with the still maturing mostly public industry. Compare how dangerous the first twenty years of air flight was. We haven’t achieved the same level of commercial space flight due to just how cautious we’ve been.
- jrockway 4y agoAviation statistics get pretty scary as you go down the regulatory hierarchy. Charter operations (part 135) have a worse safety record than big airlines (part 121). General Aviation pales in comparison to both. (And yup, some careless private pilots turn their C172 into an unlicensed charter airline.) Good overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGl2_fVr2Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpGl2_fVr2Y Right now, private spaceflight is basically regulated in a manner similar to Part 91 (GA) operations. The customer signs a waiver saying that the vehicle is not certified and that they've checked it out to ensure it's safe. Early days, of course.
- wyldfire 4y agoSpeculating - what if we only consider craft piloting errors? That would rule out many fatalities - Apollo 1, Challenger, Columbia.
- edgyquant 4y agoYou sure? When air flight was pre-commercial it was a dangerous business indeed. Had we been as cautious as with space flight we wouldn’t have had commercial air flights until very recently.
- mc32 4y agoIt’s important to account for the frequency difference for these events. One of them has thousands of flights per day, the other not as many.
- Eleison23 4y ago[dead]
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- KineticLensman 4y agoTake a look at: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y agoHa! Yeah crew resource management is what I meant but misremembered as critical resource management.
- Sharlin 4y agoThe reason surgery is so far behind aeronautics is likely entirely due to the fact that when a surgery goes wrong, it usually doesn't kill hundreds of people at once in a massive fireball. Everything else being equal, rare but spectacular failures tend to garner more attention than more frequent but less dramatic ones.
- JimtheCoder 4y ago"The reason surgery is so far behind aeronautics is likely entirely due to the fact that when a surgery goes wrong, it usually doesn't kill hundreds of people at once in a massive fireball." You also have to wonder how many deaths from surgery are officially classified as "Doctors messed up" vs something else that partially or fully absolves them from responsibility...
- fn-mote 4y ago> The reason surgery is so far behind aeronautics is likely entirely due to the fact that when a surgery goes wrong Surgery is not a public performance. How do you even find out about the mistakes that occur? Fatal mistakes, sure, maybe... You have a better bet of your dash cam showing what happened when your car is hit by another car, if something happens to you. I think nobody's really going to know what mistakes were made while you were on the table. Certainly not in a near miss like this case. Very interesting reference on improving healthcare and getting honest measurements: a 2004 article by Gawande on the treatment of cystic fibrosis. [1] [1] Atul Gawande, https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/12/06/the-bell-curve https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/12/06/the-bell-curve
- scyzoryk_xyz 4y agoAtul Gawande’s „Checklist Manifesto” is also fantastic. He goes specifically into how airline and construction safety checklists make those industries safer and then lays out a checklist method for reducing complications in the OR. There is some discussion on implementing black box style recording into the OR. I’ve met surgeons enthusiastic for this idea as an opportunity to geek out even more. But this enthusiasm depends on how authoritarian culture is in a given country. The OR is also often a place where people are in a corrupted power structure. I have been to countries where dangerous surgeons are covered by younger surgeons - that’s where recording in the OR is less popular. On the other hand I have heard arguments against such recording as well. Anatomies differ, shit gets ugly to unqualified bystanders. Insurance keeps an eye on everything. Surgeons can become so careful that they prefer not to help so as not to endanger their career.