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More likely a merger would ruin things for users of bot GNOME and KDE. > Having a single desktop for developers to target if they want to reach Linux users wou

More likely a merger would ruin things for users of bot GNOME and KDE. > Having a single desktop for developers to target if they want to reach Linux users would be nice as well. This would be pointless, the vast majority of applications on linux don't care what DE they're run under. You can run Gnome applications under KDE, KDE applications under Gnome, just about any random GUI application under any window manager you wrote up last weekend which the developer of that application never even heard of. I don't understand what you're on about with Electron. Electron applications run under any DE or WM. Electron is a framework for creating GUI applications, it's not a desktop environment. They're orthogonal. I think you might be confusing KDE with Qt, Gnome with GTK, these things are not the same. An application that uses GTK is not a "Gnome application" unless it's affiliated with the Gnome project. An application using Qt is not a "KDE application" unless it's affiliated with KDE. Most GTK and Qt applications are independent, not affiliated with either KDE or Gnome. But even when they are affiliated with one or the other, you can still use them in the other.

criddell 4y ago
I was sloppy when saying Gnome or KDE rather than GTK or Qt, but it sounds like you were able to see what I was trying to say. You can run GTK applications under KDE (and Qt under Gnome) iff you install the other runtime. When you do, you’re using twice as much disk space, more memory (due to less sharing), and now have twice as many DE-related vulnerabilities on your machine. IMHO, it’s not ideal. Electron is really a distinct platform. It requires an underlying DE but doesn’t really use it. It’s a third system and unfortunately it seems to be taking over Linux when it comes to new interesting applications. Both KDE and Gnome feel a little dead from the perspective of an end-user who wants to see cool new apps come out on native Linux. I don’t think desktop Linux is in a particularly good place right now. There’s so much untapped potential and I get a little frustrated to see Electron taking over.
- dale_glass 4y ago
  > You can run GTK applications under KDE (and Qt under Gnome) iff you install the other runtime. When you do, you’re using twice as much disk space, more memory (due to less sharing), and now have twice as many DE-related vulnerabilities on your machine. IMHO, it’s not ideal. Who cares? That's an extremely nerd/purist sort of concern -- technically true, practically the vast majority of users won't care if it works well enough. Eg, right now I have KDE running, and on top of that there's Firefox, Steam, VS Code and Discord, none of which quite looks like KDE. All of those run on Windows, which creates exactly the same situation. Discord looks like Discord, not like a native Windows app.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    > none of which quite looks like KDE. Indeed, the biggest issue with using a mix of GUI frameworks is the inconsistent styling. But anybody who's used desktop Linux for long has either made peace with this, or endeavored to unify their styling. Either way, it's not a problem for the application developer to worry about.
    - dale_glass 4y ago
      Or Windows. Windows isn't even 100% consistent in style in regards to what you get out of the box, with multiple generations of old stuff always poking out somewhere. And even MS apps have long invented their own UI -- Office has long brought its own particular controls. And the moment you install almost anything, any semblance of consistency goes out of the window. At least GTK and KDE are two common, polished styles. For a long time it was a fashion for every random app, including technical things like antiviruses to have some sort of goofy, customized UI toolkit with irregular shaped windows. (https://i.imgur.com/P3Vu11W.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/P3Vu11W.jpeg)
      - seba_dos1 4y ago
        Funny how even that goofy shield has retained a dedicated and distinct title bar with window controls that looked almost like all the other title bars.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > iff you install the other runtime. When you do, you’re using twice as much disk space, more memory (due to less sharing), Such concerns are almost always premature optimization. It costs next to nothing to use Dolphin in Gnome or Nautilus in KDE. Virtually all KDE users have at least some GTK applications they use anyway, Firefox uses GTK and most KDE users use Firefox. The only time this might become an issue is if you enjoy running modern software on antique hardware. And refusing to use a Qt application in Gnome because you think it will increase your attack surface is.. very odd. If you're only using a single file manager, then you only have to worry about vulnerabilities related to a single file manager. Vulnerabilities in another which you have installed but don't run aren't relevant. I'm using PCManFM but also have Dolphin installed. If there is a Dolphin vulnerability, why should I worry about it? Having Dolphin installed doesn't expose me to any meaningful risk and only costs me about 2MB of hard drive space. It's nothing. It's not even worth my time to uninstall it. > Electron is really a distinct platform. It requires an underlying DE I mean.. it doesn't. Electron apps work with bare bones tiling window managers, they generally don't make any assumptions about desktop environments or require you to use one at all. And that's the way it is with other GUI frameworks, and the way it should be. If you want to make a native linux desktop application, then just pick whichever framework you like best and stop worrying about what DE your users prefer. Their DE preference should have no bearing on your choice. If you choose GTK like Mozilla did, that's not going to stop 99.9% of KDE users from using your program. One in a thousand KDE users actually using Konqueror to browse the web is probably a generous estimate.. tl;dr: "Too many DEs" is not an authentic impediment to writing programs for Linux. It's just an excuse frequently cited by Windows developers who usually don't understand Linux in the first place. 'Fragmentation' is a convenient excuse for their (IMHO reasonable!) unwillingness to cater to such a small number of people. If Qt/KDE didn't exist and GTK/Gnome were the whole of the Linux desktop experience, they'd find another excuse.

criddell 4y ago

I was sloppy when saying Gnome or KDE rather than GTK or Qt, but it sounds like you were able to see what I was trying to say. You can run GTK applications under KDE (and Qt under Gnome) iff you install the other runtime. When you do, you’re using twice as much disk space, more memory (due to less sharing), and now have twice as many DE-related vulnerabilities on your machine. IMHO, it’s not ideal. Electron is really a distinct platform. It requires an underlying DE but doesn’t really use it. It’s a third system and unfortunately it seems to be taking over Linux when it comes to new interesting applications. Both KDE and Gnome feel a little dead from the perspective of an end-user who wants to see cool new apps come out on native Linux. I don’t think desktop Linux is in a particularly good place right now. There’s so much untapped potential and I get a little frustrated to see Electron taking over.

dale_glass 4y ago
> You can run GTK applications under KDE (and Qt under Gnome) iff you install the other runtime. When you do, you’re using twice as much disk space, more memory (due to less sharing), and now have twice as many DE-related vulnerabilities on your machine. IMHO, it’s not ideal. Who cares? That's an extremely nerd/purist sort of concern -- technically true, practically the vast majority of users won't care if it works well enough. Eg, right now I have KDE running, and on top of that there's Firefox, Steam, VS Code and Discord, none of which quite looks like KDE. All of those run on Windows, which creates exactly the same situation. Discord looks like Discord, not like a native Windows app.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  > none of which quite looks like KDE. Indeed, the biggest issue with using a mix of GUI frameworks is the inconsistent styling. But anybody who's used desktop Linux for long has either made peace with this, or endeavored to unify their styling. Either way, it's not a problem for the application developer to worry about.
  - dale_glass 4y ago
    Or Windows. Windows isn't even 100% consistent in style in regards to what you get out of the box, with multiple generations of old stuff always poking out somewhere. And even MS apps have long invented their own UI -- Office has long brought its own particular controls. And the moment you install almost anything, any semblance of consistency goes out of the window. At least GTK and KDE are two common, polished styles. For a long time it was a fashion for every random app, including technical things like antiviruses to have some sort of goofy, customized UI toolkit with irregular shaped windows. (https://i.imgur.com/P3Vu11W.jpeg https://i.imgur.com/P3Vu11W.jpeg)
    - seba_dos1 4y ago
      Funny how even that goofy shield has retained a dedicated and distinct title bar with window controls that looked almost like all the other title bars.
LarryMullins 4y ago
> iff you install the other runtime. When you do, you’re using twice as much disk space, more memory (due to less sharing), Such concerns are almost always premature optimization. It costs next to nothing to use Dolphin in Gnome or Nautilus in KDE. Virtually all KDE users have at least some GTK applications they use anyway, Firefox uses GTK and most KDE users use Firefox. The only time this might become an issue is if you enjoy running modern software on antique hardware. And refusing to use a Qt application in Gnome because you think it will increase your attack surface is.. very odd. If you're only using a single file manager, then you only have to worry about vulnerabilities related to a single file manager. Vulnerabilities in another which you have installed but don't run aren't relevant. I'm using PCManFM but also have Dolphin installed. If there is a Dolphin vulnerability, why should I worry about it? Having Dolphin installed doesn't expose me to any meaningful risk and only costs me about 2MB of hard drive space. It's nothing. It's not even worth my time to uninstall it. > Electron is really a distinct platform. It requires an underlying DE I mean.. it doesn't. Electron apps work with bare bones tiling window managers, they generally don't make any assumptions about desktop environments or require you to use one at all. And that's the way it is with other GUI frameworks, and the way it should be. If you want to make a native linux desktop application, then just pick whichever framework you like best and stop worrying about what DE your users prefer. Their DE preference should have no bearing on your choice. If you choose GTK like Mozilla did, that's not going to stop 99.9% of KDE users from using your program. One in a thousand KDE users actually using Konqueror to browse the web is probably a generous estimate.. tl;dr: "Too many DEs" is not an authentic impediment to writing programs for Linux. It's just an excuse frequently cited by Windows developers who usually don't understand Linux in the first place. 'Fragmentation' is a convenient excuse for their (IMHO reasonable!) unwillingness to cater to such a small number of people. If Qt/KDE didn't exist and GTK/Gnome were the whole of the Linux desktop experience, they'd find another excuse.