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Are we're relying on pilots who are holding many many things in their heads to follow only the verbal directions of air traffic control? Two alternatives that

Are we're relying on pilots who are holding many many things in their heads to follow only the verbal directions of air traffic control? Two alternatives that I would think would be fairly easy to implement. 1) Google maps style directions input by air traffic control showing as well as telling the pilot what runway/path to runway to take. 2) Coloured lighting directing the pilot to the right runway via the correct path. Then the pilot only needs to know that they are following blue, and when it's time for them to move, blue comes up. I understand this would be more work on the part of ATC, where right now they can verbally communicate, but a system such as this may also help ATC relieve some of the mental load. Is this already happening? I can't find any links to suggest it is.

crooked-v 4y ago
> 1) Google maps style directions input by air traffic control showing as well as telling the pilot what runway/path to runway to take. Now you've added one more thing for the pilot to look at instead of actually looking out the windows.
- LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
  Head-up display? Augmented reality?
bgc 4y ago
Related to (2) is an RWSL[0] system, which was supposedly in use at the time of this event and is designed to stop exactly this sort of thing… whether it was functioning, the pilots didn’t see it, etc, will surely come out in the ensuing investigations. ETA: another comment suggests that while JFK has RWSL, it was not installed at the intersection where this occurred. [0] https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/ https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/
tobinfricke 4y ago
Re #2: We already have something like this at some airports. I wonder whether it was available on the runway/taxiway in question? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway_status_lights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway_status_lights
- tobinfricke 4y ago
  Seems like the particular intersection where this incident occured is supposed to be protected by RSL: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/media/JFK.pdf https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/media/JFK.pd...
  - cmurf 4y ago
    Runway Entrance Lights at intersection J/4L which is where the incursion happened. These are taxiway centerline lights, and should have been red at the time. Here's the gotcha: REL only illuminate once the departing aircraft reaches 30 kts. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/pet/ https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/pet/ Based on the animation https://twitter.com/CaseWade/status/1614342894248394752 https://twitter.com/CaseWade/status/1614342894248394752 at 00:14, I'm pretty sure AA 106 was no longer in visual contact with REL lighting by the time DL 1943 reached 30 kts.
scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago
My understanding is that there is a shit ton that is and always has been happening in this area. Air safety is the leading sector in standards for safety training. We are relying on checklists, procedures, surveillance tech, simulation training, certification, re-certification etc. etc. No other industry has put in as much thought into these problems. Except for maybe the military. Source: I had the opportunity to meet and participate in crisis resource management training for surgeons held by a trainer from pilot training industry. Everyone’s mind was blown because surgery is comparatively in the Middle Ages. Based on seeing and hearing about it I believe that more ideas have been studied and tested than you’d expect. Cognitive overload in crisis situations is a well researched problem. Probably hard finding links on the subject though.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  Space flight is the one industry with a better track record I’d say.
  - hilbertseries 4y ago
    I wonder by what metric this is true. For instance, I’m sure the fatality per flight of manned space flight is an order of magnitude worse than commercial air flight in the US.
    - perihelions 4y ago
      Easily *six* orders of magnitude. STS saw two crashes in O(10^2) flights (and SpaceX has much smaller numbers still). The US handles O(10^7) commercial flights per year, none of which crashed in 10+ years (I think). https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers
      - edgyquant 4y ago
        Ridiculous. This is comparing the modern commercial private space flight industry with the still maturing mostly public industry. Compare how dangerous the first twenty years of air flight was. We haven’t achieved the same level of commercial space flight due to just how cautious we’ve been.
thom 4y ago
I worked at a startup on some of the earliest rollouts of Airport Collaborative Decision Making systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_Collaborative_Decision_Making https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_Collaborative_Decision... These are more about timing and throughput in airports, and less about safety critical stuff, and certainly there are new fancy navigation and runway lighting systems to help with that. But what I’ll say is that airports involve a huge number of different organisations, operating huge numbers of systems from different vendors, and until about 15 years ago there wasn’t much joining it all up end to end. To the point that a killer demo early on was merely putting the airport and all the planes on a real-time map. So, it doesn’t surprise me that a lot of the responsibility still falls on humans and processes.
asciimike 4y ago
On 1: While taxiing, you're supposed to have the taxiway map up (https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/JFK/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/JFK/APD/AIRPORT+DI...), and something like ForeFlight (which many pilots, GA and commercial, use) will alert you when you're approaching a runway as well as once you enter it. Not sure what the instruments in a 20+ year old 777 will have to help with this (likely the taxiway map, unsure if they'll alert on runway entrance). On communication: most modern flight computers do support getting your IFR clearance from the FAA (see CPDLC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_data_link_communications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_data_... and Tower Data Link System: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/media/Presentations/15-01_RD289_Data_Comm_Briefing_Anderson.pdf https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/medi...). This doesn't include taxi clearance. Looks like ForeFlight and MITRE are working on bridging the gap (take the audio taxi clearance and overlay it on the map): https://www.mitre.org/news-insights/impact-story/runway-safety-application-keeps-taxiing-aircraft-out-harms-way https://www.mitre.org/news-insights/impact-story/runway-safe... EDIT: here's a video of the feature in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5-7jVg8fE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5-7jVg8fE; looks like it's only on the most expensive plan though :/
K2L8M11N2 4y ago
#1 sort of already exists, it’s called progressive taxi: https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/progressive-taxi-instructions https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/progressive-taxi-instruct...
dehrmann 4y ago
> Are we're relying on pilots who are holding many many things in their heads to follow only the verbal directions of air traffic control? With how much can be going on at major airports, probably. If ATC routed you on one taxiway the last 10 flights, then switched it up, you could easy repeat back what they told you while still thinking of the old route. Commercial aviation's safety record disagrees with me, though.
matsimitsu 4y ago
#2 is already a thing in Europe, (for example on Heathrow you can hear ATC say "follow the greens", which will guide the planes to the correct Runway entrance: https://youtu.be/7pX9hxn-cmE?t=363 https://youtu.be/7pX9hxn-cmE?t=363) Or this one, showing how it works in foggy condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W2ak94xTXM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W2ak94xTXM And an explanation of the system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAn1mfBDDkc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAn1mfBDDkc

crooked-v 4y ago

> 1) Google maps style directions input by air traffic control showing as well as telling the pilot what runway/path to runway to take. Now you've added one more thing for the pilot to look at instead of actually looking out the windows.

LargoLasskhyfv 4y ago
Head-up display? Augmented reality?

bgc 4y ago

Related to (2) is an RWSL[0] system, which was supposedly in use at the time of this event and is designed to stop exactly this sort of thing… whether it was functioning, the pilots didn’t see it, etc, will surely come out in the ensuing investigations. ETA: another comment suggests that while JFK has RWSL, it was not installed at the intersection where this occurred. [0] https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/ https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/

tobinfricke 4y ago

Re #2: We already have something like this at some airports. I wonder whether it was available on the runway/taxiway in question? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway_status_lights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runway_status_lights

tobinfricke 4y ago
Seems like the particular intersection where this incident occured is supposed to be protected by RSL: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/media/JFK.pdf https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/media/JFK.pd...
- cmurf 4y ago
  Runway Entrance Lights at intersection J/4L which is where the incursion happened. These are taxiway centerline lights, and should have been red at the time. Here's the gotcha: REL only illuminate once the departing aircraft reaches 30 kts. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/pet/ https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/technology/rwsl/pet/ Based on the animation https://twitter.com/CaseWade/status/1614342894248394752 https://twitter.com/CaseWade/status/1614342894248394752 at 00:14, I'm pretty sure AA 106 was no longer in visual contact with REL lighting by the time DL 1943 reached 30 kts.

scyzoryk_xyz 4y ago

My understanding is that there is a shit ton that is and always has been happening in this area. Air safety is the leading sector in standards for safety training. We are relying on checklists, procedures, surveillance tech, simulation training, certification, re-certification etc. etc. No other industry has put in as much thought into these problems. Except for maybe the military. Source: I had the opportunity to meet and participate in crisis resource management training for surgeons held by a trainer from pilot training industry. Everyone’s mind was blown because surgery is comparatively in the Middle Ages. Based on seeing and hearing about it I believe that more ideas have been studied and tested than you’d expect. Cognitive overload in crisis situations is a well researched problem. Probably hard finding links on the subject though.

edgyquant 4y ago
Space flight is the one industry with a better track record I’d say.
- hilbertseries 4y ago
  I wonder by what metric this is true. For instance, I’m sure the fatality per flight of manned space flight is an order of magnitude worse than commercial air flight in the US.
  - perihelions 4y ago
    Easily *six* orders of magnitude. STS saw two crashes in O(10^2) flights (and SpaceX has much smaller numbers still). The US handles O(10^7) commercial flights per year, none of which crashed in 10+ years (I think). https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/by_the_numbers
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      Ridiculous. This is comparing the modern commercial private space flight industry with the still maturing mostly public industry. Compare how dangerous the first twenty years of air flight was. We haven’t achieved the same level of commercial space flight due to just how cautious we’ve been.

thom 4y ago

I worked at a startup on some of the earliest rollouts of Airport Collaborative Decision Making systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_Collaborative_Decision_Making https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airport_Collaborative_Decision... These are more about timing and throughput in airports, and less about safety critical stuff, and certainly there are new fancy navigation and runway lighting systems to help with that. But what I’ll say is that airports involve a huge number of different organisations, operating huge numbers of systems from different vendors, and until about 15 years ago there wasn’t much joining it all up end to end. To the point that a killer demo early on was merely putting the airport and all the planes on a real-time map. So, it doesn’t surprise me that a lot of the responsibility still falls on humans and processes.

asciimike 4y ago

On 1: While taxiing, you're supposed to have the taxiway map up (https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/JFK/APD/AIRPORT+DIAGRAM/pdf https://flightaware.com/resources/airport/JFK/APD/AIRPORT+DI...), and something like ForeFlight (which many pilots, GA and commercial, use) will alert you when you're approaching a runway as well as once you enter it. Not sure what the instruments in a 20+ year old 777 will have to help with this (likely the taxiway map, unsure if they'll alert on runway entrance). On communication: most modern flight computers do support getting your IFR clearance from the FAA (see CPDLC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_data_link_communications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controller%E2%80%93pilot_data_... and Tower Data Link System: https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/media/Presentations/15-01_RD289_Data_Comm_Briefing_Anderson.pdf https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/acf/medi...). This doesn't include taxi clearance. Looks like ForeFlight and MITRE are working on bridging the gap (take the audio taxi clearance and overlay it on the map): https://www.mitre.org/news-insights/impact-story/runway-safety-application-keeps-taxiing-aircraft-out-harms-way https://www.mitre.org/news-insights/impact-story/runway-safe... EDIT: here's a video of the feature in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5-7jVg8fE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5-7jVg8fE; looks like it's only on the most expensive plan though :/

K2L8M11N2 4y ago

#1 sort of already exists, it’s called progressive taxi: https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/progressive-taxi-instructions https://www.skybrary.aero/articles/progressive-taxi-instruct...

dehrmann 4y ago

> Are we're relying on pilots who are holding many many things in their heads to follow only the verbal directions of air traffic control? With how much can be going on at major airports, probably. If ATC routed you on one taxiway the last 10 flights, then switched it up, you could easy repeat back what they told you while still thinking of the old route. Commercial aviation's safety record disagrees with me, though.

matsimitsu 4y ago

#2 is already a thing in Europe, (for example on Heathrow you can hear ATC say "follow the greens", which will guide the planes to the correct Runway entrance: https://youtu.be/7pX9hxn-cmE?t=363 https://youtu.be/7pX9hxn-cmE?t=363) Or this one, showing how it works in foggy condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W2ak94xTXM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W2ak94xTXM And an explanation of the system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAn1mfBDDkc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAn1mfBDDkc