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> Big Tech vs Big Government They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship

> Big Tech vs Big Government They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship to turn around.

friendlyHornet 4y ago
At one point (and even still today in many countries outside the west), so were the church and state.
_Algernon_ 4y ago
The same can be said about religion and state, at least in the US. Doesn't take away from that being the platonic ideal we should strive for.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  How about things like education, healthcare and social services? Historically these were all functions of the church, not of the state. Those functions coming under control of the state means, in effect, the state transforming into the church - or at least functionally becoming church-like. We see how big tech is taking on a lot of functions of a state. Big tech companies are a bit like states. They have something like citizenship, taxes, and laws.
  - gsatic 4y ago
    It's probably more efficient. Reminds me of some paper about Walmart/Amazon systems getting sophisticated enough to run the country better than the govt - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      When you don't need humans it can be very efficient! And opaque once you add arbitration, paid for by these psuedo-governments. Company towns and scrip were super efficient too! Not so great for civil rights though.
    - _Algernon_ 4y ago
      > It's probably more efficient. Yeah, government types which disregard democracy tend to have that attribute.
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      I 100% do not want to live somewhere run by the people who run Walmart.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - themitigating 4y ago
    . Big tech companies are a bit like states. They have something like citizenship, taxes, and laws. What taxes, laws, and citizenship is unqiue to tech companies? I assume you mean money to join, rules, and membership. There are business outside of tech that have this
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  It may be also worth noting that the "Separation of Church and State" people often quote is from a poem that a politician was reciting. To my knowledge that concept has never been codified in law.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    It is in the first amendment. That is, the US explicitly can not force all citizens into a single church as was common in England where they were Catholic for half a millennia and then replaced that with the Church of England. People love to bring up “it’s actually not in the constitution” as if explicitly saying that in anyway detracts from the fact that a foundational principle of the nation /separated/ church from state.
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
      That does prevent forcing a particular religion on people but it does not in any way prevent the mix of religion and government. As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls using taxpayer funds. There are many laws derived from Christian ethics and values. There are also unwritten concepts that are effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. That is not written anywhere to my knowledge. But you are right, they can not force someone to be Christian.
      - edgyquant 4y ago
        You’re completely ignoring the fact that the government not forcing a single church is the separation of church and state being talked about
        Spivak 4y ago
        “We can make Christianity the de facto law of the land, have federal holidays be Christian holidays, have the interests of the church intertwined with that of the state, have “secular” state institutions mirror christian sacraments, have our pledge of allegiance essentially be a declaration of our country being Christian — but hey, they can’t make you go to church on Sunday” is not exactly what one might call a strong separation.
- crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
  And what about a state that integrates all religions, instead? Has that been tried?
  - gomizari 4y ago
    USSR, perhaps. Really rich with nations and religions.
    - crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
      If it's only been tried once, it's definitely time to try again, except maybe with a focus on wellbeing this time.
64r5384644y 4y ago
I'm not convinced this is entirely true. In the USA maybe it holds some degree of accuracy right now but just looking at China and Tencent shows plenty of evidence for how a tech company might find heavy government interference cumbersome at the very least within certain commercial spaces.
tessierashpool 4y ago
> They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship to turn around. never mind, then. the big thing that moral imperatives have in common with the checks and balances necessary for society to be healthy is that none of these things ever require any effort.

> Big Tech vs Big Government They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship to turn around.

friendlyHornet 4y ago

At one point (and even still today in many countries outside the west), so were the church and state.

_Algernon_ 4y ago

The same can be said about religion and state, at least in the US. Doesn't take away from that being the platonic ideal we should strive for.

HPsquared 4y ago
How about things like education, healthcare and social services? Historically these were all functions of the church, not of the state. Those functions coming under control of the state means, in effect, the state transforming into the church - or at least functionally becoming church-like. We see how big tech is taking on a lot of functions of a state. Big tech companies are a bit like states. They have something like citizenship, taxes, and laws.
- gsatic 4y ago
  It's probably more efficient. Reminds me of some paper about Walmart/Amazon systems getting sophisticated enough to run the country better than the govt - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
  - paulryanrogers 4y ago
    When you don't need humans it can be very efficient! And opaque once you add arbitration, paid for by these psuedo-governments. Company towns and scrip were super efficient too! Not so great for civil rights though.
  - _Algernon_ 4y ago
    > It's probably more efficient. Yeah, government types which disregard democracy tend to have that attribute.
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    I 100% do not want to live somewhere run by the people who run Walmart.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- themitigating 4y ago
  . Big tech companies are a bit like states. They have something like citizenship, taxes, and laws. What taxes, laws, and citizenship is unqiue to tech companies? I assume you mean money to join, rules, and membership. There are business outside of tech that have this
LinuxBender 4y ago
It may be also worth noting that the "Separation of Church and State" people often quote is from a poem that a politician was reciting. To my knowledge that concept has never been codified in law.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  It is in the first amendment. That is, the US explicitly can not force all citizens into a single church as was common in England where they were Catholic for half a millennia and then replaced that with the Church of England. People love to bring up “it’s actually not in the constitution” as if explicitly saying that in anyway detracts from the fact that a foundational principle of the nation /separated/ church from state.
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    That does prevent forcing a particular religion on people but it does not in any way prevent the mix of religion and government. As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls using taxpayer funds. There are many laws derived from Christian ethics and values. There are also unwritten concepts that are effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. That is not written anywhere to my knowledge. But you are right, they can not force someone to be Christian.
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      You’re completely ignoring the fact that the government not forcing a single church is the separation of church and state being talked about
      - Spivak 4y ago
        “We can make Christianity the de facto law of the land, have federal holidays be Christian holidays, have the interests of the church intertwined with that of the state, have “secular” state institutions mirror christian sacraments, have our pledge of allegiance essentially be a declaration of our country being Christian — but hey, they can’t make you go to church on Sunday” is not exactly what one might call a strong separation.
crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
And what about a state that integrates all religions, instead? Has that been tried?
- gomizari 4y ago
  USSR, perhaps. Really rich with nations and religions.
  - crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
    If it's only been tried once, it's definitely time to try again, except maybe with a focus on wellbeing this time.

64r5384644y 4y ago

I'm not convinced this is entirely true. In the USA maybe it holds some degree of accuracy right now but just looking at China and Tencent shows plenty of evidence for how a tech company might find heavy government interference cumbersome at the very least within certain commercial spaces.

tessierashpool 4y ago

> They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship to turn around. never mind, then. the big thing that moral imperatives have in common with the checks and balances necessary for society to be healthy is that none of these things ever require any effort.