8 ms·

> There are vile ethnic caricatures and slurs in those patriotic cartoons from the Second World War, and to its immense credit, Warner Bros. has often worked to

> There are vile ethnic caricatures and slurs in those patriotic cartoons from the Second World War, and to its immense credit, Warner Bros. has often worked to contextualize and preserve those shorts. In several cases, it has included those works in separate subsections on home-video releases, so that they won’t autoplay with the rest of the cartoons. If only more shared this view that we should thoughtfully and critically engage with problematic elements of classic works rather than summarily banishing them.

ksniwmidjd 4y ago
[dead]
CharlesW 4y ago
Do you have a list of these classic, summarily-banished works? In a world where Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever is available on mainstream streaming services, it's hard to imagine what atrocities you're thinking of.
- parker_mountain 4y ago
  They worst of them are referred to as the Censored Eleven, although you can easily find them intact (albeit, with a warning). It's not a complete list - others have been added to the list since, such as WWII cartoons with highly racist anti-Japanese charactures. An example of one illustrates why the content might be considered problematic: "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs". A contemporary review said, "A satire on Snow White done in blackface, set in modern swing, this is the best in a long time. It's very funny." The "atrocities" include rampant racism, sexism, and other needless offenses with the intent of comedy. Other media of the time, such as Theodore Geisel/Dr Suess' wartime cartoons, often show up on these lists as well. In my opinion, it's good that these cartoons are accessible, with content warnings, yet kept out of normal playback rotation. They're relics of an age gone, thankfully, past.
  - MisterBastahrd 4y ago
    My avatar for the longest time was the Minah Bird in the short Inki and the Minah Bird. For those who are unaware, the Inki character in this short was a small tribal African child in a grass skirt who spent his days attempting to hunt various animals with a spear. And by African, I mean the blackface depiction with the white lips that is reminiscent of old Al Jolson films. Now, I didn't remember ANYTHING about this part of the video. I had last watched it when I was a small child. But I enjoyed the part I did remember, namely the Minah bird, because the bird was methodical, walked in step with Mendelssohn's "The Hebrides," and could whup the crap out of anything. So when it came time to choose an avatar during a period of time when people were not using their faces as screen shots, I used this character. It wasn't until years later that my girlfriend, who happened to be black, asked me why the cartoon bird was my avatar. So I looked it up and... let's just say I discontinued use of the avatar before the topic was broached again.
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      > And by African, I mean the blackface depiction with the white lips that is reminiscent of old Al Jolson films. Not trying to excuse anything, but I wonder how much this kind of depiction was an artefact of animation/video production in a black-and-white or early-colour era, much like how old cartoon animals with black fur often wear white gloves, to give hands/mouths some contrast and make movement visible. Arguably, even "modern" cameras are apparently not designed with noncaucasian skintones in mind, something interest groups do not tire to bring up.
      - defrost 4y ago
        > I wonder how much this kind of depiction was an artefact of animation/video production in a black-and-white or early-colour era Zero. Nada, Nothing. The history of blackface begins with stage and musical performances "aping" actual black musicians and banjo players [1]. There wasn't a lot of film work happening in 1848 . . . [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
      - hef19898 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- gjsman-1000 4y ago
  Even on all known re-releases, we know that some Tom and Jerry episodes have been altered. And 2 episodes, even in their "complete set," are completely absent.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    And that is, IMHO, totally fine. We have Tom & Jerry DVD at home, bought years ago for the kids. I loved Tom and Jerry as a kid, the kids loved stuff like Willy E. Coyote, so I thought the DVD set was a good idea. Oh dear, that was the first time I realized that as kid I never saw the old episodes... Those are good in a historical context to show just how racist cartoons can be, but certainly not for entertainment. Same goes for the early Tintin comics, especially those set in colonial Africa have serious racist undertones. Something even the author acknowledged. And those undertones are completely (?) absent from the later ones. Just shows how subversive racism can be when it is part of everyday culture, and that even non racist people fall prey to using those racist stereotypes in their work. The same goes for sexism and any other kind of systematic discrimination.
    - gjsman-1000 4y ago
      For a home release, I get it... and at the same time, I don't. I'd like to quote the philosopher George Santayana, who I don't agree with that much but certainly agree with on this quote: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” If we, to use the expression, whitewash all that happened in the past... we'll forget how terrible a place it used to be. So, I would agree that Tom and Jerry cartoons might not belong in a home audience - but that doesn't mean Warner should be incapable of, saying, releasing a true "for collectors" limited-release version of all the unedited shorts with a warning ahead of time.
    - customname 4y ago
      Ohhhh nooooo not a cartoon Asian man - we need to erase this from history.
- RichardCA 4y ago
  Here's a good example. I rememeber seeing this back in the 90's when they would have weekend "mini-Cons" in L.A. at places like the Ambassador Hotel for animation and Anime fans. They had to project it on 16mm film. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6q8qen https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6q8qen The "Scat" version of Nagasaki was provided by Leo "Zoot" Watson: https://looneytunes.fandom.com/wiki/Leo_Watson https://looneytunes.fandom.com/wiki/Leo_Watson
- swarnie 4y ago
  Songs of the south Any Tom and Jerry episode involving Mammy Two Shoes A few WW2 era animations, Hitler-Donald duck springs to mind.
  - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
    “Song of the South” is a full-length Disney film and the first to mix live action with animation. One might think with that historic meaning, it would be preserved. But it’s impossible to find. Even eBay has banned sale of the DVD. Fortunately I have a copy my father ripped to DVD from some unknown source sometime in the 90s. It’s poor quality.
    - gjsman-1000 4y ago
      If you look into it, Disney (because, well... money, not any actual guilt) actually sold VHS tapes from the 90s to the early 00s in many countries except the US. Many "bootleg" copies originate from them. You can find the VHS on eBay for ~$40-$50 from the UK.
      - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
        Interesting. I guess VHS is the low-quality source of my DVD rip.
        gjsman-1000 4y ago
        Another thing you can look into, here's the secret words: Canción del sur. The film went public domain in Spain. And surprise, there's some boutique resellers in Spain who do DVDs and Blu-rays... and add language tracks... https://www.amazon.com/Song-South-Blu-Ray-Reg-Spain/dp/B09BDXRLNB/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1450QI0W3UBIW&keywords=song+of+the+south&qid=1673820490&s=movies-tv&sprefix=song+of+the+south%2Cmovies-tv%2C117&sr=1-4 https://www.amazon.com/Song-South-Blu-Ray-Reg-Spain/dp/B09BD...
        TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
taskforcegemini 4y ago
forbidding/removing/censoring bad things eventually leads to people forgetting the understanding of why it was considered bad

ksniwmidjd 4y ago

[dead]

CharlesW 4y ago

Do you have a list of these classic, summarily-banished works? In a world where Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever is available on mainstream streaming services, it's hard to imagine what atrocities you're thinking of.

parker_mountain 4y ago
They worst of them are referred to as the Censored Eleven, although you can easily find them intact (albeit, with a warning). It's not a complete list - others have been added to the list since, such as WWII cartoons with highly racist anti-Japanese charactures. An example of one illustrates why the content might be considered problematic: "Coal Black and de Sebben Dwarfs". A contemporary review said, "A satire on Snow White done in blackface, set in modern swing, this is the best in a long time. It's very funny." The "atrocities" include rampant racism, sexism, and other needless offenses with the intent of comedy. Other media of the time, such as Theodore Geisel/Dr Suess' wartime cartoons, often show up on these lists as well. In my opinion, it's good that these cartoons are accessible, with content warnings, yet kept out of normal playback rotation. They're relics of an age gone, thankfully, past.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  My avatar for the longest time was the Minah Bird in the short Inki and the Minah Bird. For those who are unaware, the Inki character in this short was a small tribal African child in a grass skirt who spent his days attempting to hunt various animals with a spear. And by African, I mean the blackface depiction with the white lips that is reminiscent of old Al Jolson films. Now, I didn't remember ANYTHING about this part of the video. I had last watched it when I was a small child. But I enjoyed the part I did remember, namely the Minah bird, because the bird was methodical, walked in step with Mendelssohn's "The Hebrides," and could whup the crap out of anything. So when it came time to choose an avatar during a period of time when people were not using their faces as screen shots, I used this character. It wasn't until years later that my girlfriend, who happened to be black, asked me why the cartoon bird was my avatar. So I looked it up and... let's just say I discontinued use of the avatar before the topic was broached again.
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    > And by African, I mean the blackface depiction with the white lips that is reminiscent of old Al Jolson films. Not trying to excuse anything, but I wonder how much this kind of depiction was an artefact of animation/video production in a black-and-white or early-colour era, much like how old cartoon animals with black fur often wear white gloves, to give hands/mouths some contrast and make movement visible. Arguably, even "modern" cameras are apparently not designed with noncaucasian skintones in mind, something interest groups do not tire to bring up.
    - defrost 4y ago
      > I wonder how much this kind of depiction was an artefact of animation/video production in a black-and-white or early-colour era Zero. Nada, Nothing. The history of blackface begins with stage and musical performances "aping" actual black musicians and banjo players [1]. There wasn't a lot of film work happening in 1848 . . . [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show
    - hef19898 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gjsman-1000 4y ago
Even on all known re-releases, we know that some Tom and Jerry episodes have been altered. And 2 episodes, even in their "complete set," are completely absent.
- hef19898 4y ago
  And that is, IMHO, totally fine. We have Tom & Jerry DVD at home, bought years ago for the kids. I loved Tom and Jerry as a kid, the kids loved stuff like Willy E. Coyote, so I thought the DVD set was a good idea. Oh dear, that was the first time I realized that as kid I never saw the old episodes... Those are good in a historical context to show just how racist cartoons can be, but certainly not for entertainment. Same goes for the early Tintin comics, especially those set in colonial Africa have serious racist undertones. Something even the author acknowledged. And those undertones are completely (?) absent from the later ones. Just shows how subversive racism can be when it is part of everyday culture, and that even non racist people fall prey to using those racist stereotypes in their work. The same goes for sexism and any other kind of systematic discrimination.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    For a home release, I get it... and at the same time, I don't. I'd like to quote the philosopher George Santayana, who I don't agree with that much but certainly agree with on this quote: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” If we, to use the expression, whitewash all that happened in the past... we'll forget how terrible a place it used to be. So, I would agree that Tom and Jerry cartoons might not belong in a home audience - but that doesn't mean Warner should be incapable of, saying, releasing a true "for collectors" limited-release version of all the unedited shorts with a warning ahead of time.
  - customname 4y ago
    Ohhhh nooooo not a cartoon Asian man - we need to erase this from history.
RichardCA 4y ago
Here's a good example. I rememeber seeing this back in the 90's when they would have weekend "mini-Cons" in L.A. at places like the Ambassador Hotel for animation and Anime fans. They had to project it on 16mm film. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6q8qen https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6q8qen The "Scat" version of Nagasaki was provided by Leo "Zoot" Watson: https://looneytunes.fandom.com/wiki/Leo_Watson https://looneytunes.fandom.com/wiki/Leo_Watson
swarnie 4y ago
Songs of the south Any Tom and Jerry episode involving Mammy Two Shoes A few WW2 era animations, Hitler-Donald duck springs to mind.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  “Song of the South” is a full-length Disney film and the first to mix live action with animation. One might think with that historic meaning, it would be preserved. But it’s impossible to find. Even eBay has banned sale of the DVD. Fortunately I have a copy my father ripped to DVD from some unknown source sometime in the 90s. It’s poor quality.
  - gjsman-1000 4y ago
    If you look into it, Disney (because, well... money, not any actual guilt) actually sold VHS tapes from the 90s to the early 00s in many countries except the US. Many "bootleg" copies originate from them. You can find the VHS on eBay for ~$40-$50 from the UK.
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      Interesting. I guess VHS is the low-quality source of my DVD rip.
      - gjsman-1000 4y ago
        Another thing you can look into, here's the secret words: Canción del sur. The film went public domain in Spain. And surprise, there's some boutique resellers in Spain who do DVDs and Blu-rays... and add language tracks... https://www.amazon.com/Song-South-Blu-Ray-Reg-Spain/dp/B09BDXRLNB/ref=sr_1_4?crid=1450QI0W3UBIW&keywords=song+of+the+south&qid=1673820490&s=movies-tv&sprefix=song+of+the+south%2Cmovies-tv%2C117&sr=1-4 https://www.amazon.com/Song-South-Blu-Ray-Reg-Spain/dp/B09BD...
        TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

taskforcegemini 4y ago

forbidding/removing/censoring bad things eventually leads to people forgetting the understanding of why it was considered bad