8 ms·

Big Tech vs Big Government are the Church vs State of the digital era - they must be kept separate - and preferably somewhat adversarial - so that powers are di

Big Tech vs Big Government are the Church vs State of the digital era - they must be kept separate - and preferably somewhat adversarial - so that powers are divided and we the people have some sort of chance.

xahrepap 4y ago
You just blew my mind. What a great comparison. I love it. Thanks for that thought. What a clear way to describe the problem.
sysadm1n 4y ago
> Big Tech vs Big Government They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship to turn around.
- friendlyHornet 4y ago
  At one point (and even still today in many countries outside the west), so were the church and state.
- _Algernon_ 4y ago
  The same can be said about religion and state, at least in the US. Doesn't take away from that being the platonic ideal we should strive for.
  - HPsquared 4y ago
    How about things like education, healthcare and social services? Historically these were all functions of the church, not of the state. Those functions coming under control of the state means, in effect, the state transforming into the church - or at least functionally becoming church-like. We see how big tech is taking on a lot of functions of a state. Big tech companies are a bit like states. They have something like citizenship, taxes, and laws.
    - gsatic 4y ago
      It's probably more efficient. Reminds me of some paper about Walmart/Amazon systems getting sophisticated enough to run the country better than the govt - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
      - paulryanrogers 4y ago
        When you don't need humans it can be very efficient! And opaque once you add arbitration, paid for by these psuedo-governments. Company towns and scrip were super efficient too! Not so great for civil rights though.
      - _Algernon_ 4y ago
        > It's probably more efficient. Yeah, government types which disregard democracy tend to have that attribute.
      - DangitBobby 4y ago
        I 100% do not want to live somewhere run by the people who run Walmart.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - themitigating 4y ago
      . Big tech companies are a bit like states. They have something like citizenship, taxes, and laws. What taxes, laws, and citizenship is unqiue to tech companies? I assume you mean money to join, rules, and membership. There are business outside of tech that have this
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    It may be also worth noting that the "Separation of Church and State" people often quote is from a poem that a politician was reciting. To my knowledge that concept has never been codified in law.
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      It is in the first amendment. That is, the US explicitly can not force all citizens into a single church as was common in England where they were Catholic for half a millennia and then replaced that with the Church of England. People love to bring up “it’s actually not in the constitution” as if explicitly saying that in anyway detracts from the fact that a foundational principle of the nation /separated/ church from state.
      - LinuxBender 4y ago
        That does prevent forcing a particular religion on people but it does not in any way prevent the mix of religion and government. As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls using taxpayer funds. There are many laws derived from Christian ethics and values. There are also unwritten concepts that are effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. That is not written anywhere to my knowledge. But you are right, they can not force someone to be Christian.
        edgyquant 4y ago
        You’re completely ignoring the fact that the government not forcing a single church is the separation of church and state being talked about
        Spivak 4y ago
        “We can make Christianity the de facto law of the land, have federal holidays be Christian holidays, have the interests of the church intertwined with that of the state, have “secular” state institutions mirror christian sacraments, have our pledge of allegiance essentially be a declaration of our country being Christian — but hey, they can’t make you go to church on Sunday” is not exactly what one might call a strong separation.
  - crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
    And what about a state that integrates all religions, instead? Has that been tried?
    - gomizari 4y ago
      USSR, perhaps. Really rich with nations and religions.
      - crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
        If it's only been tried once, it's definitely time to try again, except maybe with a focus on wellbeing this time.
- 64r5384644y 4y ago
  I'm not convinced this is entirely true. In the USA maybe it holds some degree of accuracy right now but just looking at China and Tencent shows plenty of evidence for how a tech company might find heavy government interference cumbersome at the very least within certain commercial spaces.
- tessierashpool 4y ago
  > They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship to turn around. never mind, then. the big thing that moral imperatives have in common with the checks and balances necessary for society to be healthy is that none of these things ever require any effort.
yucky 4y ago
I don't think so. Big Government uses Big Tech as a tool in its arsenal. There is no greater surveillance tool. Trying to keep them separated is like trying to keep Big Government separated from the Military Industrial Complex. They are two sides of the same coin.
- nwallin 4y ago
  That's what he's saying. He's not saying that Big Government and Big Tech are separated, he's saying that Big Government and Big Tech ought to be separated. In the West we fight pretty hard to keep the Church and State separated, but this isn't a natural state of being. The Divine Right of Kings, the Pharoahs were gods, Sharia law, the Japanese Emperor is the direct descendant of Amaterasu, the Spanish Inquisition, etc etc etc. History is rife with Church and State being two sides of the same coin. In fact in recent years certain government leaders have been pretty effective at intertwining the US government with Christianity, despite the separation of Church and State being enshrined in the First Amendment; prayer in schools, the repeal of Roe v Wade, etc. The link between big government and big tech (and big ag, big auto...) ought to be fought with similar gusto as we attempt to protect the separation we've won between church and state.
  - yucky 4y ago
    > That's what he's saying. He's not saying that Big Government and Big Tech are separated, he's saying that Big Government and Big Tech ought to be separated. Right, and I'm saying they can't be (as I said, two sides of the same coin). I think this desire comes from a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of power. It's beyond wishful thinking.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      It’s trivial compared to religion.
      - mistermann 4y ago
        A faith-based belief, ironically.
kupopuffs 4y ago
Big government should just be treated as another customer of Big Tech
- speedgoose 4y ago
  That would give them too much power, it is dangerous.
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  They have been since WWII. In the recent years the CIA has been quite busy in silicon valley. [1] Prior to that many projects funded by DARPA were tested and refined by the general public. The internet was one of the projects. [1] - https://mattermark.com/q-tel-cias-vc-arm-busy-years/ https://mattermark.com/q-tel-cias-vc-arm-busy-years/
  - est31 4y ago
    FWIW CIA involvement is much older than "recent years". https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci... https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-project-1636592238 https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-p...
sinenomine 4y ago
Big Tech vs Big Government vs The Intelligence Community vs NGO blub to be more precise.
- mistermann 4y ago
  Don't forget the trustworthy totally independent media!
exabrial 4y ago
The problem is an increasing majority of people in the US treat their political party as a religion.
- edgyquant 4y ago
  An increasing minority of democrats do. Republicans tend to have a religion already so they try to leave that stuff to the church.
  - doubleg72 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Where does this come from? The religious foundations of the current GOP are well attested[1]. The historical conventional wisdom around the US's political parties is that Democrats fall in love (meaning that they abstain from voting over minor political differences), while Republicans fall in line (meaning that they hold their nose and vote for whoever the party ticket is). That's changed a little bit over the the last decade, but not appreciably so. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority
    - TimTheTinker 4y ago
      In my opinion, Republicans are less falling in line and more voting against the other side. American politics today are about thesis/antithesis, where the thesis is whatever the latest liberal agenda is and the antithesis is everyone who normally disagrees with each other, but is united in a common disagreement with the Democratic Party. In this environment, there's only one political thesis (not antithesis) that has more than a very small percentage of the vote.
  - hobs 4y ago
    What makes you say that when preachers are actively testing the laws regarding non-profit status, widely reported to support GOP legislators who are using their religion as the basis for their platforms on abortion. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-elections-irs/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-el... https://www.newsnationnow.com/religion/churches-politics-pulpit/ https://www.newsnationnow.com/religion/churches-politics-pul...
jonnybgood 4y ago
Separation of church and state is about the government not enforcing or favoring one religion over others. I'm having trouble seeing the analogy applied to separation of big tech and big government. The separation of big tech and big government is a different categorical issue. But does this issue actually exist? At the end of the day, the government holds all the power over big tech as it should. And you do have a chance to say how your government should operate.
- bioemerl 4y ago
  Government cannot ask big tech for data on their users. Big tech is not allowed to lobby for the government to pass certain laws or restrictions or whatever else. Big tech is not allowed to voluntarily or in any form shape or a communicate any data with the government unless it is strictly related to government business and employees. The government may not communicate in any form shape or way any data to big tech unless the conditions from the above paragraph apply. Government may continue to regulate technology companies, but the data they collect on their users is considered strictly not in the domain of any form of government. Unless we are talking about court cases with discovery and the defendant being able to defend themselves. If someone uses Facebook to commit a crime Facebook should be liable to reveal data about the messages they sent by court order for a *public* trial.
  - jonnybgood 4y ago
    There are severe consequences to what you're suggesting with a net negative to society. Before you know it we'll have Big Tech Banks being a money launderer's wet dream. Kinda like how it is now, except all their data is in a bank the government can't touch or will ever know about.
    - bioemerl 4y ago
      I would believe regulations on banking would apply regardless. You would apply these laws only to places where social media companies are dealing with the people's day today data and interactions, not stuff like banking. It's the law, it'll be written by a billion lawyers who consider edge cases like this and this little comic will apply. https://xkcd.com/1494/ https://xkcd.com/1494/
thraway12 4y ago
Those two categories are both random af. Are local police "Big Government" according to even half of the people who use the phrase "Big Government"? Are banks that utilize AI "big tech"? What about government intelligence agencies that have venture wings and invest in these companies? How quick a revolving door between the two blurs your distinction? Are you imagining pitched legal battles between the two based on public court filings? How likely are the filings themselves falsely suggesting some schism between the two that doesn't exist?
fallingfrog 4y ago
Yeah but big government put a ton of money into creating these technologies in the first place- why do you think they did it? They’re getting value for their money. Information technology is technology of control.

xahrepap 4y ago

You just blew my mind. What a great comparison. I love it. Thanks for that thought. What a clear way to describe the problem.

sysadm1n 4y ago

> Big Tech vs Big Government They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship to turn around.

friendlyHornet 4y ago
At one point (and even still today in many countries outside the west), so were the church and state.
_Algernon_ 4y ago
The same can be said about religion and state, at least in the US. Doesn't take away from that being the platonic ideal we should strive for.
- HPsquared 4y ago
  How about things like education, healthcare and social services? Historically these were all functions of the church, not of the state. Those functions coming under control of the state means, in effect, the state transforming into the church - or at least functionally becoming church-like. We see how big tech is taking on a lot of functions of a state. Big tech companies are a bit like states. They have something like citizenship, taxes, and laws.
  - gsatic 4y ago
    It's probably more efficient. Reminds me of some paper about Walmart/Amazon systems getting sophisticated enough to run the country better than the govt - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
    - paulryanrogers 4y ago
      When you don't need humans it can be very efficient! And opaque once you add arbitration, paid for by these psuedo-governments. Company towns and scrip were super efficient too! Not so great for civil rights though.
    - _Algernon_ 4y ago
      > It's probably more efficient. Yeah, government types which disregard democracy tend to have that attribute.
    - DangitBobby 4y ago
      I 100% do not want to live somewhere run by the people who run Walmart.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - themitigating 4y ago
    . Big tech companies are a bit like states. They have something like citizenship, taxes, and laws. What taxes, laws, and citizenship is unqiue to tech companies? I assume you mean money to join, rules, and membership. There are business outside of tech that have this
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  It may be also worth noting that the "Separation of Church and State" people often quote is from a poem that a politician was reciting. To my knowledge that concept has never been codified in law.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    It is in the first amendment. That is, the US explicitly can not force all citizens into a single church as was common in England where they were Catholic for half a millennia and then replaced that with the Church of England. People love to bring up “it’s actually not in the constitution” as if explicitly saying that in anyway detracts from the fact that a foundational principle of the nation /separated/ church from state.
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
      That does prevent forcing a particular religion on people but it does not in any way prevent the mix of religion and government. As just one example, court rooms still have people swear on Christian bibles. I believe it has recently become optional. There are also many government buildings that fund the creation and installation of religious statues and bible verses on plaques in their halls using taxpayer funds. There are many laws derived from Christian ethics and values. There are also unwritten concepts that are effectively enforced such as prison review boards giving credence to someone that has become a Born Again Christian when considering parole. That is not written anywhere to my knowledge. But you are right, they can not force someone to be Christian.
      - edgyquant 4y ago
        You’re completely ignoring the fact that the government not forcing a single church is the separation of church and state being talked about
        Spivak 4y ago
        “We can make Christianity the de facto law of the land, have federal holidays be Christian holidays, have the interests of the church intertwined with that of the state, have “secular” state institutions mirror christian sacraments, have our pledge of allegiance essentially be a declaration of our country being Christian — but hey, they can’t make you go to church on Sunday” is not exactly what one might call a strong separation.
- crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
  And what about a state that integrates all religions, instead? Has that been tried?
  - gomizari 4y ago
    USSR, perhaps. Really rich with nations and religions.
    - crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
      If it's only been tried once, it's definitely time to try again, except maybe with a focus on wellbeing this time.
64r5384644y 4y ago
I'm not convinced this is entirely true. In the USA maybe it holds some degree of accuracy right now but just looking at China and Tencent shows plenty of evidence for how a tech company might find heavy government interference cumbersome at the very least within certain commercial spaces.
tessierashpool 4y ago
> They're so heavily intertwined that bucketing them into distinct categories that don't talk to each other would be a massive ship to turn around. never mind, then. the big thing that moral imperatives have in common with the checks and balances necessary for society to be healthy is that none of these things ever require any effort.

yucky 4y ago

I don't think so. Big Government uses Big Tech as a tool in its arsenal. There is no greater surveillance tool. Trying to keep them separated is like trying to keep Big Government separated from the Military Industrial Complex. They are two sides of the same coin.

nwallin 4y ago
That's what he's saying. He's not saying that Big Government and Big Tech are separated, he's saying that Big Government and Big Tech ought to be separated. In the West we fight pretty hard to keep the Church and State separated, but this isn't a natural state of being. The Divine Right of Kings, the Pharoahs were gods, Sharia law, the Japanese Emperor is the direct descendant of Amaterasu, the Spanish Inquisition, etc etc etc. History is rife with Church and State being two sides of the same coin. In fact in recent years certain government leaders have been pretty effective at intertwining the US government with Christianity, despite the separation of Church and State being enshrined in the First Amendment; prayer in schools, the repeal of Roe v Wade, etc. The link between big government and big tech (and big ag, big auto...) ought to be fought with similar gusto as we attempt to protect the separation we've won between church and state.
- yucky 4y ago
  > That's what he's saying. He's not saying that Big Government and Big Tech are separated, he's saying that Big Government and Big Tech ought to be separated. Right, and I'm saying they can't be (as I said, two sides of the same coin). I think this desire comes from a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of power. It's beyond wishful thinking.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    It’s trivial compared to religion.
    - mistermann 4y ago
      A faith-based belief, ironically.

kupopuffs 4y ago

Big government should just be treated as another customer of Big Tech

speedgoose 4y ago
That would give them too much power, it is dangerous.
LinuxBender 4y ago
They have been since WWII. In the recent years the CIA has been quite busy in silicon valley. [1] Prior to that many projects funded by DARPA were tested and refined by the general public. The internet was one of the projects. [1] - https://mattermark.com/q-tel-cias-vc-arm-busy-years/ https://mattermark.com/q-tel-cias-vc-arm-busy-years/
- est31 4y ago
  FWIW CIA involvement is much older than "recent years". https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-cia-and-nsa-research-grants-for-mass-surveillance https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci... https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-project-1636592238 https://gizmodo.com/larry-ellisons-oracle-started-as-a-cia-p...

sinenomine 4y ago

Big Tech vs Big Government vs The Intelligence Community vs NGO blub to be more precise.

mistermann 4y ago
Don't forget the trustworthy totally independent media!

exabrial 4y ago

The problem is an increasing majority of people in the US treat their political party as a religion.

edgyquant 4y ago
An increasing minority of democrats do. Republicans tend to have a religion already so they try to leave that stuff to the church.
- doubleg72 4y ago
  [flagged]
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Where does this come from? The religious foundations of the current GOP are well attested[1]. The historical conventional wisdom around the US's political parties is that Democrats fall in love (meaning that they abstain from voting over minor political differences), while Republicans fall in line (meaning that they hold their nose and vote for whoever the party ticket is). That's changed a little bit over the the last decade, but not appreciably so. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority
  - TimTheTinker 4y ago
    In my opinion, Republicans are less falling in line and more voting against the other side. American politics today are about thesis/antithesis, where the thesis is whatever the latest liberal agenda is and the antithesis is everyone who normally disagrees with each other, but is united in a common disagreement with the Democratic Party. In this environment, there's only one political thesis (not antithesis) that has more than a very small percentage of the vote.
- hobs 4y ago
  What makes you say that when preachers are actively testing the laws regarding non-profit status, widely reported to support GOP legislators who are using their religion as the basis for their platforms on abortion. https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-elections-irs/ https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/30/johnson-amendment-el... https://www.newsnationnow.com/religion/churches-politics-pulpit/ https://www.newsnationnow.com/religion/churches-politics-pul...

jonnybgood 4y ago

Separation of church and state is about the government not enforcing or favoring one religion over others. I'm having trouble seeing the analogy applied to separation of big tech and big government. The separation of big tech and big government is a different categorical issue. But does this issue actually exist? At the end of the day, the government holds all the power over big tech as it should. And you do have a chance to say how your government should operate.

bioemerl 4y ago
Government cannot ask big tech for data on their users. Big tech is not allowed to lobby for the government to pass certain laws or restrictions or whatever else. Big tech is not allowed to voluntarily or in any form shape or a communicate any data with the government unless it is strictly related to government business and employees. The government may not communicate in any form shape or way any data to big tech unless the conditions from the above paragraph apply. Government may continue to regulate technology companies, but the data they collect on their users is considered strictly not in the domain of any form of government. Unless we are talking about court cases with discovery and the defendant being able to defend themselves. If someone uses Facebook to commit a crime Facebook should be liable to reveal data about the messages they sent by court order for a *public* trial.
- jonnybgood 4y ago
  There are severe consequences to what you're suggesting with a net negative to society. Before you know it we'll have Big Tech Banks being a money launderer's wet dream. Kinda like how it is now, except all their data is in a bank the government can't touch or will ever know about.
  - bioemerl 4y ago
    I would believe regulations on banking would apply regardless. You would apply these laws only to places where social media companies are dealing with the people's day today data and interactions, not stuff like banking. It's the law, it'll be written by a billion lawyers who consider edge cases like this and this little comic will apply. https://xkcd.com/1494/ https://xkcd.com/1494/

thraway12 4y ago

Those two categories are both random af. Are local police "Big Government" according to even half of the people who use the phrase "Big Government"? Are banks that utilize AI "big tech"? What about government intelligence agencies that have venture wings and invest in these companies? How quick a revolving door between the two blurs your distinction? Are you imagining pitched legal battles between the two based on public court filings? How likely are the filings themselves falsely suggesting some schism between the two that doesn't exist?

fallingfrog 4y ago

Yeah but big government put a ton of money into creating these technologies in the first place- why do you think they did it? They’re getting value for their money. Information technology is technology of control.