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Just to make people aware, Collegeboard is one of the companies that depends on and fosters the "high education industry" to exist. They create and administer t

by dimmke 4y ago

Just to make people aware, Collegeboard is one of the companies that depends on and fosters the "high education industry" to exist. They create and administer the SATs, which students have to pay a fee to take, and that test is a requirement to apply for admission at most U.S. universities. They also sell all of the data they acquire from students forced to take this test to colleges and universities. This is another example of how rotten and corrupt the industry is - they have an incentive to make college seem affordable and any of their sponsored research should automatically be taken with a grain of salt. The author of the parent comment likely knew some or all of this and chose not to disclose it when posting "statistics" I just used the "Net Price Calculator" from Georgia Tech where I said I'd be living with my parents (so no room and board cost) and eligible for in state tuition and their calculator for a year of in state tuition came out to almost $20,000: https://imgur.com/a/BrsfVXV https://imgur.com/a/BrsfVXV

secabeen 4y ago
College board is involved, sure. However, they are the clearest comprehensive data source I know of on the cost of college net of aid. Do you have other data sources beyond a single data point? The only fully non-biased data points I know of are from the US Education department. Their data shows that tuition and fees average across all 4-year public schools is ~$10,000/yr. The $2,500/yr number I quoted is for first-time attendees, who may get more grants and financial aid. As a comparison, the annual tuition at 2-year schools does average only $2,500/yr, and is a common path for students who then transfer to 4-year schools. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_333.10.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_333.10.a... The ed.gov data also clearly shows the root problem, disinvestment in state schools by state legislatures. In 2007-08, states spent $11,049 per student, and tuition averaged $8,314. By 2016, state allocations were down to $8,218, and tuition was up to $10,526. Q.E.D. In the images you linked, tuition is $12k, not $20k. The latter number includes transportation, personal expenses, and other items.
- dimmke 4y ago
  I could probably find more data - but I didn't feel like spending multiple hours on a Sunday building an argument against you that barely anybody would read. You act like me posting one example is just some fluke anecdata. I only had to pull up one university I know of in my home state and use their own calculator to prove you are wrong. >In the images you linked, tuition is $12k, not $20k. 1. 12k/year is 5x more than the "average" you quoted. But you don't acknowledge that in your comment at all. 2. College always has other non optional expenses than class tuition. That's why it's included in a calculator by a college. You mentioned "personal expenses" and "transportation" to downplay it. Other compulsory line items for going to college in the U.S.: - Textbooks - that are obscenely overpriced. - Parking. You have to pay for a pass if you're not living in the dorms. - Meal plans. In many cases, you have to buy a meal plan that is several thousand dollars if you are a freshman even if you live off campus. Your argument is like buying a car from a dealership and saying "I only paid 15k. Yeah, there was a $2000 'Paperwork fee' and a $1500 'Document fee' but the actual car was only 15k!" You're being disingenuous. I implied it in my previous comment but now I'm stating it outright.
  - secabeen 4y ago
    > I only had to pull up one university I know of in my home state and use their own calculator to prove you are wrong. You're right. I give a lot more weight to sourced, comprehensive data from organizations that regularly publish said data and the US Department of Education over something clearly described as an estimate from a website of a single school. > $12k/year is 5x more than the "average" you quoted. But you don't acknowledge that in your comment at all. $12k/yr is quite a bit more. My guess is that the $12k/yr is the mean tuition paid, but $2.5k/yr is probably the median amount paid, but I'm not 100% sure, nor can you necessarily compare the data points from two completely different surveys. > College always has other non optional expenses than class tuition. That's why it's included in a calculator by a college. You mentioned "personal expenses" and "transportation" to downplay it. I fully agree, and these expenses should be included when thinking about the cost. However, we should be comparing apples to apples. Generally, the conversation around college costs are around tuition and fees, and so including non-tuition distorts the numbers. Room and Board are also important costs of going to college, but we don't usually include those either, because most people would have to pay those anyways, if they were employed instead of going to college. My primary point is that college costs for actual attendees are not as high as many people think, or as high as you are claiming them to be. I don't understand how I'm being disingenuous, but I also think we've gotten far off of my original point. Your original argument was that college costs orders of magnitude more than it's value, and that the costs were opaque. However, we then proceeded to have a discussion based on cost data that seems relatively easy to find. Colleges clearly do price-discriminate, and try to get as much money from each student as they can. However, this is probably better than the alternative, fixed public prices, as with fixed prices, either the well-off wouldn't pay enough, or the poor would be unable to attend. I would agree that opaque pricing is not ideal, and I wish that the public debate about college was conducted around net tuition, not a nameplate figure that few students pay. However, I can't control the public dialog, so here we are.

by dimmke 4y ago

secabeen 4y ago

College board is involved, sure. However, they are the clearest comprehensive data source I know of on the cost of college net of aid. Do you have other data sources beyond a single data point? The only fully non-biased data points I know of are from the US Education department. Their data shows that tuition and fees average across all 4-year public schools is ~$10,000/yr. The $2,500/yr number I quoted is for first-time attendees, who may get more grants and financial aid. As a comparison, the annual tuition at 2-year schools does average only $2,500/yr, and is a common path for students who then transfer to 4-year schools. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_333.10.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_333.10.a... The ed.gov data also clearly shows the root problem, disinvestment in state schools by state legislatures. In 2007-08, states spent $11,049 per student, and tuition averaged $8,314. By 2016, state allocations were down to $8,218, and tuition was up to $10,526. Q.E.D. In the images you linked, tuition is $12k, not $20k. The latter number includes transportation, personal expenses, and other items.

dimmke 4y ago
I could probably find more data - but I didn't feel like spending multiple hours on a Sunday building an argument against you that barely anybody would read. You act like me posting one example is just some fluke anecdata. I only had to pull up one university I know of in my home state and use their own calculator to prove you are wrong. >In the images you linked, tuition is $12k, not $20k. 1. 12k/year is 5x more than the "average" you quoted. But you don't acknowledge that in your comment at all. 2. College always has other non optional expenses than class tuition. That's why it's included in a calculator by a college. You mentioned "personal expenses" and "transportation" to downplay it. Other compulsory line items for going to college in the U.S.: - Textbooks - that are obscenely overpriced. - Parking. You have to pay for a pass if you're not living in the dorms. - Meal plans. In many cases, you have to buy a meal plan that is several thousand dollars if you are a freshman even if you live off campus. Your argument is like buying a car from a dealership and saying "I only paid 15k. Yeah, there was a $2000 'Paperwork fee' and a $1500 'Document fee' but the actual car was only 15k!" You're being disingenuous. I implied it in my previous comment but now I'm stating it outright.
- secabeen 4y ago
  > I only had to pull up one university I know of in my home state and use their own calculator to prove you are wrong. You're right. I give a lot more weight to sourced, comprehensive data from organizations that regularly publish said data and the US Department of Education over something clearly described as an estimate from a website of a single school. > $12k/year is 5x more than the "average" you quoted. But you don't acknowledge that in your comment at all. $12k/yr is quite a bit more. My guess is that the $12k/yr is the mean tuition paid, but $2.5k/yr is probably the median amount paid, but I'm not 100% sure, nor can you necessarily compare the data points from two completely different surveys. > College always has other non optional expenses than class tuition. That's why it's included in a calculator by a college. You mentioned "personal expenses" and "transportation" to downplay it. I fully agree, and these expenses should be included when thinking about the cost. However, we should be comparing apples to apples. Generally, the conversation around college costs are around tuition and fees, and so including non-tuition distorts the numbers. Room and Board are also important costs of going to college, but we don't usually include those either, because most people would have to pay those anyways, if they were employed instead of going to college. My primary point is that college costs for actual attendees are not as high as many people think, or as high as you are claiming them to be. I don't understand how I'm being disingenuous, but I also think we've gotten far off of my original point. Your original argument was that college costs orders of magnitude more than it's value, and that the costs were opaque. However, we then proceeded to have a discussion based on cost data that seems relatively easy to find. Colleges clearly do price-discriminate, and try to get as much money from each student as they can. However, this is probably better than the alternative, fixed public prices, as with fixed prices, either the well-off wouldn't pay enough, or the poor would be unable to attend. I would agree that opaque pricing is not ideal, and I wish that the public debate about college was conducted around net tuition, not a nameplate figure that few students pay. However, I can't control the public dialog, so here we are.