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The way colleges/universities work in the US is so odd to me. There’s so many contradictions: - You pay for a service where the amount you pay far outweighs th

by dimmke 4y ago

The way colleges/universities work in the US is so odd to me. There’s so many contradictions: - You pay for a service where the amount you pay far outweighs the value of the service, by orders of magnitude. This is allowed because the amount is often obscured and deferred from the customer. The student is allowed to make this choice because they’re an “adult” and it serves the interests of the school. - Then, instead of getting treated like the adult you are legally, you get infantilized. Like the idea of paying above what market rent would be to live in a “dorm” and have an RA conduct room checks to make sure you’re following arbitrary rules. Classes you pay obscene money for require attendance like you’re a child. Forced meal plans, etc… Schools banning the consumption of alcohol entirely. And then they do stuff like this. It sounds like they’re just blocking it from their network, which is their choice. But based on the way these schools behave it wouldn’t surprise me if they tried to enact an actual ban on having the app installed on your phone. They seem to think they have the authority to dictate how people live their lives to an uncomfortable degree.

dimmke 4y ago
Also, after considering this further, I think the only reason these schools would not attempt an actual prohibition on the app itself is that it would be very difficult to enforce and they likely don't have the IT capacity to do it. It would not surprise me at all to see these schools start to require students consent to have their phones "managed" by the school, using tools like configuration profiles. "To prevent cheating" or whatever. That's why the eventual fall of Apple's control of the App Store concerns me. While I think it's ethically dubious for Apple to control what you install on your device, in practice getting rid of it opens the door for institutions like these with an outsized amount of influence on people's agency and autonomy to suddenly be in a position where they can force the installation of apps that don't have to follow Apple's relatively consumer friendly rules. That's very scary to me, and I think universities would be one of the first places to take full advantage. They have the perfect mix of compliant, infantilized customers who are used to being told what to do and maladaptive incentives of university administrations. When I look at the app Life360, and how many kids (into their teens and even 20s) were forced to be tracked every single place they were by their parents for their childhood, I see a much bigger version of that happening here.
- izacus 4y ago
  Apple outright enforces the ability for these organizations to censor, filter and monitor devices, so what are you going on about app store?
  - dimmke 4y ago
    Apple allows management profiles. But they are much more restricted than the Android version. My point is in an environment like the US, removing the App Store is effectively removed any and all oversight in situations where an organization can mandate the installation of apps. The government isn’t going to protect us with legislation- the fact that there is bipartisan agreement about TikTok is very telling. It means lawmakers know how these devices can track, it just didn’t matter until that data could potentially fall into the hands to a hostile superpower. Universities can say “hey, you have to install this app to ‘register’ your device with us” that gives us far more power and data than Apple would ever allow, even on a device with a management profile and add “unregistered devices” to the contraband that RAs search for. They wouldn’t even have to come up with this idea themselves. I’ve no doubt multiple SaaS vendors would be hawking this to college administrations within a year or two. It’s untenable now because of Apples market share.
airza 4y ago
They said in the article that using it on university-owned devices is fine, as long as it's not connected to their WIFI. I don't think it makes a ton of sense from a cybersecurity perspective, but it is pretty similar to a workplace where similar rules could be in place.
- dimmke 4y ago
  I think the muddling of roles is what bothers me about it. In a workplace, the responsibility is reversed. You're the opposite of a customer - you're an employee. Here, customers (and honestly, what they are getting vs. what they are paying for is so bad in my opinion it borders on fraud, so even using the term customer here is being generous) are treated like employees.
  - hairofadog 4y ago
    > I think the muddling of roles is what bothers me about it. But the “it” you’re bothered by here is a hypothetical scenario, proposed by you, in which the university mandates that students consent to the university managing their personal devices, which nobody has suggested and which even you concede isn’t likely to happen.
    - dimmke 4y ago
      Nope - it happens in several other ways that I've described in my posts. It just hasn't happened in this space yet.
      - hairofadog 4y ago
        My mistake, though in my defense your comments do read as if you're discussing universities forcing students to allow them to manage their devices. Your comment above is the first I'm hearing of students being forced to live in a dorm, join a meal plan, or abstain from alcohol, excepting religious institutions. If those things are really happening at public universities I'd agree that's an overreach.
chitowneats 4y ago
> Then, instead of getting treated like the adult you are legally, you get infantilized. The parents, who are often the ones paying at these big universities, want this. They want their newly adult children to be treated like, and cared for as, actual children for as long as they can manage. This attitude is due to deeply rooted issues with the way American adults view their children, and the way they view our society as inherently dangerous. The result is that we have people in their mid-20's and even 30's who are genuinely incapable of managing their own lives or thinking for themselves. And I don't just mean the ones who moved back in with Mom and Dad at 28. They are an extreme, though not uncommon, example.
- eu90h 4y ago
  It is, in fact, not extreme. By the most recent count a majority (58%) of American young adults (18-35) live with their parents.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    As I said, it's not uncommon. Compared to how Americans lived in the recent past it is extreme. A very large change in a very short period of time.
secabeen 4y ago
> You pay for a service where the amount you pay far outweighs the value of the service, by orders of magnitude. This is allowed because the amount is often obscured and deferred from the customer. The student is allowed to make this choice because they’re an “adult” and it serves the interests of the school. The amount you pay is obscured, but generally to the student's benefit, not detriment. 75% of students attend public schools, mostly in-state. Few students pay the nameplate tuition described in the media. Net tuition actually paid is much lower, and has been largely flat over the past 5 years. Some useful data points from here https://research.collegeboard.org/trends/college-pricing/highlights https://research.collegeboard.org/trends/college-pricing/hig...: > The majority of full-time undergraduate students receive grant aid that helps them pay for college. > Since 2016-17, the average net tuition and fee price paid by first-time full-time in-state students enrolled at public four-year institutions has been declining after adjusting for inflation; it was an estimated $2,250 in 2022-23.
- dimmke 4y ago
  Just to make people aware, Collegeboard is one of the companies that depends on and fosters the "high education industry" to exist. They create and administer the SATs, which students have to pay a fee to take, and that test is a requirement to apply for admission at most U.S. universities. They also sell all of the data they acquire from students forced to take this test to colleges and universities. This is another example of how rotten and corrupt the industry is - they have an incentive to make college seem affordable and any of their sponsored research should automatically be taken with a grain of salt. The author of the parent comment likely knew some or all of this and chose not to disclose it when posting "statistics" I just used the "Net Price Calculator" from Georgia Tech where I said I'd be living with my parents (so no room and board cost) and eligible for in state tuition and their calculator for a year of in state tuition came out to almost $20,000: https://imgur.com/a/BrsfVXV https://imgur.com/a/BrsfVXV
  - secabeen 4y ago
    College board is involved, sure. However, they are the clearest comprehensive data source I know of on the cost of college net of aid. Do you have other data sources beyond a single data point? The only fully non-biased data points I know of are from the US Education department. Their data shows that tuition and fees average across all 4-year public schools is ~$10,000/yr. The $2,500/yr number I quoted is for first-time attendees, who may get more grants and financial aid. As a comparison, the annual tuition at 2-year schools does average only $2,500/yr, and is a common path for students who then transfer to 4-year schools. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_333.10.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_333.10.a... The ed.gov data also clearly shows the root problem, disinvestment in state schools by state legislatures. In 2007-08, states spent $11,049 per student, and tuition averaged $8,314. By 2016, state allocations were down to $8,218, and tuition was up to $10,526. Q.E.D. In the images you linked, tuition is $12k, not $20k. The latter number includes transportation, personal expenses, and other items.

by dimmke 4y ago

dimmke 4y ago

Also, after considering this further, I think the only reason these schools would not attempt an actual prohibition on the app itself is that it would be very difficult to enforce and they likely don't have the IT capacity to do it. It would not surprise me at all to see these schools start to require students consent to have their phones "managed" by the school, using tools like configuration profiles. "To prevent cheating" or whatever. That's why the eventual fall of Apple's control of the App Store concerns me. While I think it's ethically dubious for Apple to control what you install on your device, in practice getting rid of it opens the door for institutions like these with an outsized amount of influence on people's agency and autonomy to suddenly be in a position where they can force the installation of apps that don't have to follow Apple's relatively consumer friendly rules. That's very scary to me, and I think universities would be one of the first places to take full advantage. They have the perfect mix of compliant, infantilized customers who are used to being told what to do and maladaptive incentives of university administrations. When I look at the app Life360, and how many kids (into their teens and even 20s) were forced to be tracked every single place they were by their parents for their childhood, I see a much bigger version of that happening here.

izacus 4y ago
Apple outright enforces the ability for these organizations to censor, filter and monitor devices, so what are you going on about app store?
- dimmke 4y ago
  Apple allows management profiles. But they are much more restricted than the Android version. My point is in an environment like the US, removing the App Store is effectively removed any and all oversight in situations where an organization can mandate the installation of apps. The government isn’t going to protect us with legislation- the fact that there is bipartisan agreement about TikTok is very telling. It means lawmakers know how these devices can track, it just didn’t matter until that data could potentially fall into the hands to a hostile superpower. Universities can say “hey, you have to install this app to ‘register’ your device with us” that gives us far more power and data than Apple would ever allow, even on a device with a management profile and add “unregistered devices” to the contraband that RAs search for. They wouldn’t even have to come up with this idea themselves. I’ve no doubt multiple SaaS vendors would be hawking this to college administrations within a year or two. It’s untenable now because of Apples market share.

airza 4y ago

They said in the article that using it on university-owned devices is fine, as long as it's not connected to their WIFI. I don't think it makes a ton of sense from a cybersecurity perspective, but it is pretty similar to a workplace where similar rules could be in place.

dimmke 4y ago
I think the muddling of roles is what bothers me about it. In a workplace, the responsibility is reversed. You're the opposite of a customer - you're an employee. Here, customers (and honestly, what they are getting vs. what they are paying for is so bad in my opinion it borders on fraud, so even using the term customer here is being generous) are treated like employees.
- hairofadog 4y ago
  > I think the muddling of roles is what bothers me about it. But the “it” you’re bothered by here is a hypothetical scenario, proposed by you, in which the university mandates that students consent to the university managing their personal devices, which nobody has suggested and which even you concede isn’t likely to happen.
  - dimmke 4y ago
    Nope - it happens in several other ways that I've described in my posts. It just hasn't happened in this space yet.
    - hairofadog 4y ago
      My mistake, though in my defense your comments do read as if you're discussing universities forcing students to allow them to manage their devices. Your comment above is the first I'm hearing of students being forced to live in a dorm, join a meal plan, or abstain from alcohol, excepting religious institutions. If those things are really happening at public universities I'd agree that's an overreach.

chitowneats 4y ago

> Then, instead of getting treated like the adult you are legally, you get infantilized. The parents, who are often the ones paying at these big universities, want this. They want their newly adult children to be treated like, and cared for as, actual children for as long as they can manage. This attitude is due to deeply rooted issues with the way American adults view their children, and the way they view our society as inherently dangerous. The result is that we have people in their mid-20's and even 30's who are genuinely incapable of managing their own lives or thinking for themselves. And I don't just mean the ones who moved back in with Mom and Dad at 28. They are an extreme, though not uncommon, example.

eu90h 4y ago
It is, in fact, not extreme. By the most recent count a majority (58%) of American young adults (18-35) live with their parents.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  As I said, it's not uncommon. Compared to how Americans lived in the recent past it is extreme. A very large change in a very short period of time.

secabeen 4y ago

> You pay for a service where the amount you pay far outweighs the value of the service, by orders of magnitude. This is allowed because the amount is often obscured and deferred from the customer. The student is allowed to make this choice because they’re an “adult” and it serves the interests of the school. The amount you pay is obscured, but generally to the student's benefit, not detriment. 75% of students attend public schools, mostly in-state. Few students pay the nameplate tuition described in the media. Net tuition actually paid is much lower, and has been largely flat over the past 5 years. Some useful data points from here https://research.collegeboard.org/trends/college-pricing/highlights https://research.collegeboard.org/trends/college-pricing/hig...: > The majority of full-time undergraduate students receive grant aid that helps them pay for college. > Since 2016-17, the average net tuition and fee price paid by first-time full-time in-state students enrolled at public four-year institutions has been declining after adjusting for inflation; it was an estimated $2,250 in 2022-23.

dimmke 4y ago
Just to make people aware, Collegeboard is one of the companies that depends on and fosters the "high education industry" to exist. They create and administer the SATs, which students have to pay a fee to take, and that test is a requirement to apply for admission at most U.S. universities. They also sell all of the data they acquire from students forced to take this test to colleges and universities. This is another example of how rotten and corrupt the industry is - they have an incentive to make college seem affordable and any of their sponsored research should automatically be taken with a grain of salt. The author of the parent comment likely knew some or all of this and chose not to disclose it when posting "statistics" I just used the "Net Price Calculator" from Georgia Tech where I said I'd be living with my parents (so no room and board cost) and eligible for in state tuition and their calculator for a year of in state tuition came out to almost $20,000: https://imgur.com/a/BrsfVXV https://imgur.com/a/BrsfVXV
- secabeen 4y ago
  College board is involved, sure. However, they are the clearest comprehensive data source I know of on the cost of college net of aid. Do you have other data sources beyond a single data point? The only fully non-biased data points I know of are from the US Education department. Their data shows that tuition and fees average across all 4-year public schools is ~$10,000/yr. The $2,500/yr number I quoted is for first-time attendees, who may get more grants and financial aid. As a comparison, the annual tuition at 2-year schools does average only $2,500/yr, and is a common path for students who then transfer to 4-year schools. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_333.10.asp?current=yes https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d21/tables/dt21_333.10.a... The ed.gov data also clearly shows the root problem, disinvestment in state schools by state legislatures. In 2007-08, states spent $11,049 per student, and tuition averaged $8,314. By 2016, state allocations were down to $8,218, and tuition was up to $10,526. Q.E.D. In the images you linked, tuition is $12k, not $20k. The latter number includes transportation, personal expenses, and other items.