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German riot police clear protesters for coal mine expansion

44 points by mikaeluman 4y ago

mikaeluman 4y ago
Amid the energy crisis in Europe, and a looming shut down of the last nuclear plants in Germany in April 2023 and declining gas input; coal has been revived as the baseload power in Germany. In the last months of 2022, about a third of power production came from coal. In 2006, about a third instead came from nuclear plants. Source (Swedish): https://www.tn.se/naringsliv/24056/efter-nedlaggningen-av-karnkraft-nu-vantar-brunkol-i-vagguttagen/ https://www.tn.se/naringsliv/24056/efter-nedlaggningen-av-ka... Officially coal is supposed to be phased out by 2030.
- cinntaile 4y ago
  > In the last months of 2022, about a third of power production came from coal. In 2006, about a third instead came from nuclear plants. You are misrepresenting the data here, implying that coal production somehow has increased over that time period but in 2006 coal stood for about 60% of the power production. Coal usage is trending downwards, but during 2021 and 2022 it has gone up as a direct result of shutting down the nuclear plants and the reduced gas input.
  - mikaeluman 4y ago
    Was not my intention to misrepresent that. Absolutely true that it has declined in total over that time period. I never made the claim you state either. The failure is the re-introduction now taking place.
    - cinntaile 4y ago
      It's a result of a situation largely outside of their control (the war), so I'm not sure if I would call it a failure. It's unfortunate of course, but it's a speed bump in the long run. Maybe it's even a blessing in disguise, without Putin nuclear would have been dead and buried in many countries. Now there is more interest from the public and governments than before, but the economics are still a big issue and the current high-interest (loan interest) environment definitely doesn't help. It would not surprise me if governments agree to unfavorable terms to help finance these things, governments have a huge information disadvantage here.
      - mytailorisrich 4y ago
        The situation is fully under their control: First, because it is a result of their energy policy over the last decade(s). Second, because the consequences of "the war" are driven by how they decided to react to it. "The war" is being used as a convenient scapegoat. Everyone could see that the sh*t had to hit the fan one day because of the terrible energy policies in most of Europe... when that happens politicians are always very keen to find reasons "outside of their control"...
        cinntaile 4y ago
        How is it a convenient scapegoat? If the supply of gas wasn't restricted we wouldn't be in this situation, I don't see how you can deny that.
      - looping__lui 4y ago
        Very much like Covid, very much like infrastructure like railroads or highways, very much like the health-care system. Their failure is incompetence fueled by ideology-driven politics for which they tried to undermine the very foundations of the German democracy (e.g., take away state-level authority during Covid). The US wasn’t the only one who warned the German government about the geopolitical risk they would be exposed to. Angela Merkel shut down nuclear power in Germany and then tied our industry to Putin.
      - buran77 4y ago
        The war exposed the failure but it was there all along. And I'll go a step further, being a bit more familiar with EU politics: this wasn't "failure" as in "random occurrence", it was set up to fail because of explicit financial interests at the top and misguided ideology for the rest. We knew the risks 30 years ago and yet German leaders in particular doubled down on reducing resiliency and increasing dependence on a high-risk partner in exchange for money and "feel good" lies to tell themselves and everyone else. EU has ran out of capable and reasonably honest leaders, now we have people with more strings attached than a piano. I say this as someone who's literally rubbed elbows with some of these people for years. Let me frame it in the IT landscape. If your storage kicks the bucket but you had no real backup, no procedures to bring back anything, and no spares you couldn't blame it on a random act outside of your control. If it turned out you had repeated warnings but instead chose to phase out backups and to replace the enterprise storage with SD cards from a shady manufacturer then you really wouldn't be able to claim "random act of God". And if when all is said and done you end up on the board of the shady SD manufacturer that kind of seals the deal on whether you are to blame or not.
  - nix23 4y ago
    A matching yt overall ;) ApoCOALypse Now! [YouTube]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLThCHzetTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLThCHzetTU
  - looping__lui 4y ago
    Not to mention that (retail) electricity prices went up like crazy and are now at up to 50 cents/kWh if you sign new contracts. 35 cents/kWh are pretty amazing already… The depiction has a breakdown of taxes also and the trend is what I remember. I must admit I’m not 1000% sure whether the page that links it is great though: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/13/german-household-electricity-prices-reach-new-record-high-in-2021share-of-green-electricity-falls/ https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/13/german-household-elec... That did the industry in Germany a real solid: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Schlaglichter-der-Wirtschaftspolitik/2022/02/16-konjunktur-wirtschaftliche-lage-in-deutschland.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Schlaglichter-der-Wirtschaf... Compared to 2015, it is down by 10% or so: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Schlaglichter-der-Wirtschaftspolitik/2022/02/16-konjunktur-wirtschaftliche-lage-in-deutschland.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Schlaglichter-der-Wirtschaf... Now, I certainly advise caution how to interpret these figures and how inflation is factored in, etc. are big factors. Having several family members across Germany working in industrial production, there is a common theme that “production is shifted abroad at scale” though… Also keep in mind: the industry didn’t pay these 35 cents/kWh prices, those were what consumers paid… The past 17+ years of political failure did the German working class a real solid. When the head of a state advises people to “use a sponge and not shower so often to preserve hot water” it’s almost surreal that a government charging 45+% of tax of a countries GDP is unable to ensure people have hot water, heating or keep up the electrical supply for industry.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      Yes, it is a total failure of policy over several decades that has finally been exposed. Hence why politicians are so keen to assign the blame on "the war".
    - carschno 4y ago
      Not arguing against the political failures, but mind that the impressions of "several family members" do not yield figures reliable for any conclusions.
      - looping__lui 4y ago
  - foepys 4y ago
    Also, almost half of the French nuclear reactors were down for maintenance in 2022, requiring German coal and gas power plants to stabilize the European power grid. The reactors only recently went online again. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/18/business/france-nuclear-power-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/18/business/france-nuclear-p...
  - Haga 4y ago
    [dead]
0xy 4y ago
The biggest scam of renewables is not the viability of the technology itself, but the lie by omission that all renewables require baseload power which always happens to be non-renewable. The massive expansion of gas peaking plants in Germany, Europe and the rest of the developed world is the prime example of the lie. Statistics are presented about the benefits of renewables, which seemingly never include the environmental destruction of the gas peaking plants propping them up. If you counter with 'what about batteries', the lie by omission shifts from environmental destruction to child slavery. Battery supply chains cannot escape the contaminant that is child slavery. Of course, this is while the West agreed to give China and India free reign to build unlimited coal plants until 2030. Why can't renewables shake these fundamental deceptions? You're either hiding emissions (gas) or hiding child slavery (batteries).
- cinntaile 4y ago
  > The biggest scam of renewables is not the viability of the technology itself, but the lie by omission that all renewables require baseload power which always happens to be non-renewable. The massive expansion of gas peaking plants in Germany, Europe and the rest of the developed world is the prime example of the lie Peaker plants are not baseload power. Baseload power means constant output, peaker plants are by definition variable output. You should also take into account that renewables+peaker plants replace coal plants in Germany, the emissions are reduced compared to before.
  - 0xy 4y ago
    If emissions are reduced, emissions are not zero. That's the fundamental lie. >Peaker plants are not baseload power Not according to reality. [1] Gas has been producing consistently on a daily basis for over a year in Germany. Natural gas is used to prop up baseload generation in Germany and practically every region it's used. [1] https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electricity-data/chart/power_generation/12.01.2023/15.01.2023/today/ https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electric...
    - loufe 4y ago
ariendj 4y ago
The irony here is that members of the green party are demonstrating against policies that their own party agreed to.
- Freak_NL 4y ago
  That's not ironic. A coalition government — something American readers may not be too familiar with — governs with a set of agreed upon policies decided during the formative stages by the participating parties. By necessity, those policies will differ from what the individual parties would want were they to rule alone, but represent instead a compromise. So a coalition government where greener parties represent 50% of the governing coalition would likely be greener than one where they only have 25%, but to do everything according to their own party programme they would need to have a majority vote to be able to govern without forming a coalition. Sometimes participating in a coalition government means the government takes actions the individual party may not find desirable, but they accept these because they do get to have their say on other topics. And sometimes local branches of a party have a differing opinion on some topics. This is overall a good system though. It means you can vote for a party closest to your ideals, and even have a chance that they can govern (e.g., as part of a coalition), or at least have them represented in parliament.
  - pestatije 4y ago
    I can see some irony though
    - ariendj 4y ago
      We seem to have a different definition of irony than Freak_NL. Fair enough :-)
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  The real irony is that a Green Party is opening new coal mines because Gerhard Schröder, former leader of the SPD, allied of the Green in this government, and former German chancellor lobbied for Gazprom and because Die Grünen lobbied to shutdown nuclear plants after Fukushima.
dsq 4y ago
It is a physical impossibility to have one’s cake and eat it too. The only energy source that can provide green energy reliably going forward is nuclear, but the Greens have always been against it. Wind and solar don’t work in Central Europe. Whats left, now that the wolf is at the door, if you want the lights on and heat for the family? Dirty coal.
- Guthur 4y ago
  No one at the top wants stable and reliable. It's so much easier to profit and seize control during periods of volatility.
  - leeroyjenkins11 4y ago
    Oh, I'm sure they salivate at the thought of smart grids.
    - durnygbur 4y ago
      > smart grids. Yes they bring an instant and infinite stream of EU and government funds.
- tete 4y ago
  > The only energy source that can provide green energy reliably going forward is nuclear This simply isn't backed by real life experience. A not too small factor about Germany producing more power is that France for years now always has problems producing enough energy, because they have to put down their nuclear plants for various reasons. In these situations nuclear power plants typically still require energy. France put all its eggs into nuclear, like pretty much no other country, and doesn't produce enough energy to even cover its own energy demands. And not just now, but the topic goes through the media at least once a year. Nobody denies that, it's just a fact. Reality just isn't that simple.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    AFAIK France produces 80% of their energy with nuclear plants and the rest is provided mostly by renewables. France is one of the biggest exporters of electricity in the World and that's where most of the non-nuclear and non-renewable production goes.
jacooper 4y ago
Rightfully so. Germany is facing the danger of de-industrialization and losing their economy, they need to react fast to get energy prices back to a realistic level, Its not the time for rosy climate goals and climate extremists(Die letzte Generation), the entire country is at risk. Despite other comments saying Germany is wasting its taxes, the way Germany handled the gas crisis is certainly better than the UK, which ironically should've been less affected. high taxes allowed Germany to strike new deals with Qatar, and to buy gas from alternative, certainty more expensive suppliers.
- looping__lui 4y ago
  Maybe before charging high taxes to cover up large scale political mistakes they should start making good decisions and giving people back their money’s worth in public services. And by good decisions I mean: put ideological wishful thinking a side and do some math and make a plan. UK just looks like a crazy show from outside. Weirdly enough it was put up for a vote and people went for it with the Brexit. With the leftist government for another 3+ years in Germany, the chances for Germany to get back on track are nil. And if Germany sh*t its pants it’s not rosy for the EU either. UK gone, France not exactly outpacing everyone and the South on the brink of financial collapse.

44 points by mikaeluman 4y ago

Amid the energy crisis in Europe, and a looming shut down of the last nuclear plants in Germany in April 2023 and declining gas input; coal has been revived as the baseload power in Germany. In the last months of 2022, about a third of power production came from coal. In 2006, about a third instead came from nuclear plants. Source (Swedish): https://www.tn.se/naringsliv/24056/efter-nedlaggningen-av-karnkraft-nu-vantar-brunkol-i-vagguttagen/ https://www.tn.se/naringsliv/24056/efter-nedlaggningen-av-ka... Officially coal is supposed to be phased out by 2030.

cinntaile 4y ago
> In the last months of 2022, about a third of power production came from coal. In 2006, about a third instead came from nuclear plants. You are misrepresenting the data here, implying that coal production somehow has increased over that time period but in 2006 coal stood for about 60% of the power production. Coal usage is trending downwards, but during 2021 and 2022 it has gone up as a direct result of shutting down the nuclear plants and the reduced gas input.
- mikaeluman 4y ago
  Was not my intention to misrepresent that. Absolutely true that it has declined in total over that time period. I never made the claim you state either. The failure is the re-introduction now taking place.
  - cinntaile 4y ago
    It's a result of a situation largely outside of their control (the war), so I'm not sure if I would call it a failure. It's unfortunate of course, but it's a speed bump in the long run. Maybe it's even a blessing in disguise, without Putin nuclear would have been dead and buried in many countries. Now there is more interest from the public and governments than before, but the economics are still a big issue and the current high-interest (loan interest) environment definitely doesn't help. It would not surprise me if governments agree to unfavorable terms to help finance these things, governments have a huge information disadvantage here.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      The situation is fully under their control: First, because it is a result of their energy policy over the last decade(s). Second, because the consequences of "the war" are driven by how they decided to react to it. "The war" is being used as a convenient scapegoat. Everyone could see that the sh*t had to hit the fan one day because of the terrible energy policies in most of Europe... when that happens politicians are always very keen to find reasons "outside of their control"...
      - cinntaile 4y ago
        How is it a convenient scapegoat? If the supply of gas wasn't restricted we wouldn't be in this situation, I don't see how you can deny that.
    - looping__lui 4y ago
      Very much like Covid, very much like infrastructure like railroads or highways, very much like the health-care system. Their failure is incompetence fueled by ideology-driven politics for which they tried to undermine the very foundations of the German democracy (e.g., take away state-level authority during Covid). The US wasn’t the only one who warned the German government about the geopolitical risk they would be exposed to. Angela Merkel shut down nuclear power in Germany and then tied our industry to Putin.
    - buran77 4y ago
      The war exposed the failure but it was there all along. And I'll go a step further, being a bit more familiar with EU politics: this wasn't "failure" as in "random occurrence", it was set up to fail because of explicit financial interests at the top and misguided ideology for the rest. We knew the risks 30 years ago and yet German leaders in particular doubled down on reducing resiliency and increasing dependence on a high-risk partner in exchange for money and "feel good" lies to tell themselves and everyone else. EU has ran out of capable and reasonably honest leaders, now we have people with more strings attached than a piano. I say this as someone who's literally rubbed elbows with some of these people for years. Let me frame it in the IT landscape. If your storage kicks the bucket but you had no real backup, no procedures to bring back anything, and no spares you couldn't blame it on a random act outside of your control. If it turned out you had repeated warnings but instead chose to phase out backups and to replace the enterprise storage with SD cards from a shady manufacturer then you really wouldn't be able to claim "random act of God". And if when all is said and done you end up on the board of the shady SD manufacturer that kind of seals the deal on whether you are to blame or not.
- nix23 4y ago
  A matching yt overall ;) ApoCOALypse Now! [YouTube]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLThCHzetTU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLThCHzetTU
- looping__lui 4y ago
  Not to mention that (retail) electricity prices went up like crazy and are now at up to 50 cents/kWh if you sign new contracts. 35 cents/kWh are pretty amazing already… The depiction has a breakdown of taxes also and the trend is what I remember. I must admit I’m not 1000% sure whether the page that links it is great though: https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/13/german-household-electricity-prices-reach-new-record-high-in-2021share-of-green-electricity-falls/ https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/13/german-household-elec... That did the industry in Germany a real solid: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Schlaglichter-der-Wirtschaftspolitik/2022/02/16-konjunktur-wirtschaftliche-lage-in-deutschland.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Schlaglichter-der-Wirtschaf... Compared to 2015, it is down by 10% or so: https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Schlaglichter-der-Wirtschaftspolitik/2022/02/16-konjunktur-wirtschaftliche-lage-in-deutschland.html https://www.bmwk.de/Redaktion/DE/Schlaglichter-der-Wirtschaf... Now, I certainly advise caution how to interpret these figures and how inflation is factored in, etc. are big factors. Having several family members across Germany working in industrial production, there is a common theme that “production is shifted abroad at scale” though… Also keep in mind: the industry didn’t pay these 35 cents/kWh prices, those were what consumers paid… The past 17+ years of political failure did the German working class a real solid. When the head of a state advises people to “use a sponge and not shower so often to preserve hot water” it’s almost surreal that a government charging 45+% of tax of a countries GDP is unable to ensure people have hot water, heating or keep up the electrical supply for industry.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Yes, it is a total failure of policy over several decades that has finally been exposed. Hence why politicians are so keen to assign the blame on "the war".
  - carschno 4y ago
    Not arguing against the political failures, but mind that the impressions of "several family members" do not yield figures reliable for any conclusions.
    - looping__lui 4y ago
- foepys 4y ago
  Also, almost half of the French nuclear reactors were down for maintenance in 2022, requiring German coal and gas power plants to stabilize the European power grid. The reactors only recently went online again. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/18/business/france-nuclear-power-russia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/18/business/france-nuclear-p...
- Haga 4y ago
  [dead]

0xy 4y ago

The biggest scam of renewables is not the viability of the technology itself, but the lie by omission that all renewables require baseload power which always happens to be non-renewable. The massive expansion of gas peaking plants in Germany, Europe and the rest of the developed world is the prime example of the lie. Statistics are presented about the benefits of renewables, which seemingly never include the environmental destruction of the gas peaking plants propping them up. If you counter with 'what about batteries', the lie by omission shifts from environmental destruction to child slavery. Battery supply chains cannot escape the contaminant that is child slavery. Of course, this is while the West agreed to give China and India free reign to build unlimited coal plants until 2030. Why can't renewables shake these fundamental deceptions? You're either hiding emissions (gas) or hiding child slavery (batteries).

cinntaile 4y ago
> The biggest scam of renewables is not the viability of the technology itself, but the lie by omission that all renewables require baseload power which always happens to be non-renewable. The massive expansion of gas peaking plants in Germany, Europe and the rest of the developed world is the prime example of the lie Peaker plants are not baseload power. Baseload power means constant output, peaker plants are by definition variable output. You should also take into account that renewables+peaker plants replace coal plants in Germany, the emissions are reduced compared to before.
- 0xy 4y ago
  If emissions are reduced, emissions are not zero. That's the fundamental lie. >Peaker plants are not baseload power Not according to reality. [1] Gas has been producing consistently on a daily basis for over a year in Germany. Natural gas is used to prop up baseload generation in Germany and practically every region it's used. [1] https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electricity-data/chart/power_generation/12.01.2023/15.01.2023/today/ https://www.agora-energiewende.de/en/service/recent-electric...
  - loufe 4y ago

ariendj 4y ago

The irony here is that members of the green party are demonstrating against policies that their own party agreed to.

Freak_NL 4y ago
That's not ironic. A coalition government — something American readers may not be too familiar with — governs with a set of agreed upon policies decided during the formative stages by the participating parties. By necessity, those policies will differ from what the individual parties would want were they to rule alone, but represent instead a compromise. So a coalition government where greener parties represent 50% of the governing coalition would likely be greener than one where they only have 25%, but to do everything according to their own party programme they would need to have a majority vote to be able to govern without forming a coalition. Sometimes participating in a coalition government means the government takes actions the individual party may not find desirable, but they accept these because they do get to have their say on other topics. And sometimes local branches of a party have a differing opinion on some topics. This is overall a good system though. It means you can vote for a party closest to your ideals, and even have a chance that they can govern (e.g., as part of a coalition), or at least have them represented in parliament.
- pestatije 4y ago
  I can see some irony though
  - ariendj 4y ago
    We seem to have a different definition of irony than Freak_NL. Fair enough :-)
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
The real irony is that a Green Party is opening new coal mines because Gerhard Schröder, former leader of the SPD, allied of the Green in this government, and former German chancellor lobbied for Gazprom and because Die Grünen lobbied to shutdown nuclear plants after Fukushima.

dsq 4y ago

It is a physical impossibility to have one’s cake and eat it too. The only energy source that can provide green energy reliably going forward is nuclear, but the Greens have always been against it. Wind and solar don’t work in Central Europe. Whats left, now that the wolf is at the door, if you want the lights on and heat for the family? Dirty coal.

Guthur 4y ago
No one at the top wants stable and reliable. It's so much easier to profit and seize control during periods of volatility.
- leeroyjenkins11 4y ago
  Oh, I'm sure they salivate at the thought of smart grids.
  - durnygbur 4y ago
    > smart grids. Yes they bring an instant and infinite stream of EU and government funds.
tete 4y ago
> The only energy source that can provide green energy reliably going forward is nuclear This simply isn't backed by real life experience. A not too small factor about Germany producing more power is that France for years now always has problems producing enough energy, because they have to put down their nuclear plants for various reasons. In these situations nuclear power plants typically still require energy. France put all its eggs into nuclear, like pretty much no other country, and doesn't produce enough energy to even cover its own energy demands. And not just now, but the topic goes through the media at least once a year. Nobody denies that, it's just a fact. Reality just isn't that simple.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  AFAIK France produces 80% of their energy with nuclear plants and the rest is provided mostly by renewables. France is one of the biggest exporters of electricity in the World and that's where most of the non-nuclear and non-renewable production goes.

jacooper 4y ago

Rightfully so. Germany is facing the danger of de-industrialization and losing their economy, they need to react fast to get energy prices back to a realistic level, Its not the time for rosy climate goals and climate extremists(Die letzte Generation), the entire country is at risk. Despite other comments saying Germany is wasting its taxes, the way Germany handled the gas crisis is certainly better than the UK, which ironically should've been less affected. high taxes allowed Germany to strike new deals with Qatar, and to buy gas from alternative, certainty more expensive suppliers.

looping__lui 4y ago
Maybe before charging high taxes to cover up large scale political mistakes they should start making good decisions and giving people back their money’s worth in public services. And by good decisions I mean: put ideological wishful thinking a side and do some math and make a plan. UK just looks like a crazy show from outside. Weirdly enough it was put up for a vote and people went for it with the Brexit. With the leftist government for another 3+ years in Germany, the chances for Germany to get back on track are nil. And if Germany sh*t its pants it’s not rosy for the EU either. UK gone, France not exactly outpacing everyone and the South on the brink of financial collapse.