5 ms·

So treat them like first class members of society then.

nhchris 4y ago
Fertility rate in: Yemen 3.5, Iraq 3.5, Afghanistan 3.9 Fertility rate in: Sweden 1.8, Norway 1.7, Denmark 1.8, United Kingdom 1.7
- jacooper 4y ago
  So? In these societies, its important to have lots of kids to be able to live(more workers = more income) Also a family is way more valued in the east than the west, where it seems to be popular to leave your family for any inconvenience(Oh your father insulated you once when he was angry? Go no contact immediately, how dare he!). An example of this is how many Europeans and most of north americans have bad relationships with their parents, compared to someone like an Egyptian or an Iraqi, even though Westerns had arguably better upbringing.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    I believe the point of the GP was that treating women "like first class members of society then" does the opposite: it lowers the number of children. You should still do it, because obviously, but if you expect more children to be the outcome, you'll be in for a surprise.
    - nhchris 4y ago
      > treating women "like first class members of society then" does the opposite I wouldn't go that far. Just that you can't blame low fertility on poor treatment of women, and that "I will protest society by having fewer children" is a convenient fantasy, not a stance held by a significant number of women. I would wager the true cause of low fertility is something merely correlated to women's rights, because e.g. the UAE have a fertility rate of 1.3, while in Israel it's at 3.0. Source for all the numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...
pokepim 4y ago
I don’t think it’s the issue. Why the same still happens in countries where women are treated much better (having more privileges than men) like Poland where women don’t need to serve in military and retire 5 years early while having 10 year longer average lifespan? Birthrate in Poland is still declining
- akudha 4y ago
  Is declining birth rate really that bad? We are at 8 Billion humans already, how many more can the planet support, with all its environment and inequality problems? That said, birth date decline is not uniform around the world. And countries like Japan have bad immigration policies. With Japanese people living longer and longer, the ratio of younger to older is severely skewed. This is not a good situation to be in. Interesting times ahead
  - julianlam 4y ago
    > Is declining birth rate really that bad? It is when your social security framework depends on an ever-growing population. Hey, I guess that makes it a pyramid scheme, doesn't it. Interesting.
    - throw_m239339 4y ago
      > Hey, I guess that makes it a pyramid scheme, doesn't it. Interesting. It is a pyramid scheme, but so is the rest of our debt fueled societies.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    > countries like Japan have bad immigration policies Bad in the sense that they can have a shrinking population without ceding their country to foreigners, without sacrificing their nationhood on the altar of economy? As you say, we are at 8 billion already, how many more can the planet support? Well, think globally, act locally: how many can Japan support? Reducing population one country at a time is much easier than the global coordination problem of reducing it for the entire world. How can you at once be aware that the global population is already too large, yet demand each country have perpetual population growth, either through birthrate or immigration?

Fertility rate in: Yemen 3.5, Iraq 3.5, Afghanistan 3.9 Fertility rate in: Sweden 1.8, Norway 1.7, Denmark 1.8, United Kingdom 1.7

jacooper 4y ago
So? In these societies, its important to have lots of kids to be able to live(more workers = more income) Also a family is way more valued in the east than the west, where it seems to be popular to leave your family for any inconvenience(Oh your father insulated you once when he was angry? Go no contact immediately, how dare he!). An example of this is how many Europeans and most of north americans have bad relationships with their parents, compared to someone like an Egyptian or an Iraqi, even though Westerns had arguably better upbringing.
- luckylion 4y ago
  I believe the point of the GP was that treating women "like first class members of society then" does the opposite: it lowers the number of children. You should still do it, because obviously, but if you expect more children to be the outcome, you'll be in for a surprise.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    > treating women "like first class members of society then" does the opposite I wouldn't go that far. Just that you can't blame low fertility on poor treatment of women, and that "I will protest society by having fewer children" is a convenient fantasy, not a stance held by a significant number of women. I would wager the true cause of low fertility is something merely correlated to women's rights, because e.g. the UAE have a fertility rate of 1.3, while in Israel it's at 3.0. Source for all the numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...

pokepim 4y ago

I don’t think it’s the issue. Why the same still happens in countries where women are treated much better (having more privileges than men) like Poland where women don’t need to serve in military and retire 5 years early while having 10 year longer average lifespan? Birthrate in Poland is still declining

akudha 4y ago
Is declining birth rate really that bad? We are at 8 Billion humans already, how many more can the planet support, with all its environment and inequality problems? That said, birth date decline is not uniform around the world. And countries like Japan have bad immigration policies. With Japanese people living longer and longer, the ratio of younger to older is severely skewed. This is not a good situation to be in. Interesting times ahead
- julianlam 4y ago
  > Is declining birth rate really that bad? It is when your social security framework depends on an ever-growing population. Hey, I guess that makes it a pyramid scheme, doesn't it. Interesting.
  - throw_m239339 4y ago
    > Hey, I guess that makes it a pyramid scheme, doesn't it. Interesting. It is a pyramid scheme, but so is the rest of our debt fueled societies.
- nhchris 4y ago
  > countries like Japan have bad immigration policies Bad in the sense that they can have a shrinking population without ceding their country to foreigners, without sacrificing their nationhood on the altar of economy? As you say, we are at 8 billion already, how many more can the planet support? Well, think globally, act locally: how many can Japan support? Reducing population one country at a time is much easier than the global coordination problem of reducing it for the entire world. How can you at once be aware that the global population is already too large, yet demand each country have perpetual population growth, either through birthrate or immigration?