4 ms·
The title is a bit clickbaity and, as usual, makes a much stronger claim than the research suggests. Sure maybe it was the climate, or maybe it was just regress
by sarchertech 4y ago
The title is a bit clickbaity and, as usual, makes a much stronger claim than the research suggests. Sure maybe it was the climate, or maybe it was just regression to the mean.
There were roughly 100x as many Europeans as Mongolians in the 13th century. It seems unlikely they could have ever conquered all of Europe with supply lines stretching back to Asia. All while maintaining a grip on 100 million subjugated non-Mongolians who probably weren’t keen to send and supply troops across the world.
Conquering they much territory is an extremely unusual event, it seems reasonable that the Mongols would just eventually run out of steam.
- KRAKRISMOTT 4y agoThey needed supply chains? I thought mongols were wild horse people who rode around in hordes living off the plains and prairies.
- LarryMullins 4y agoMaybe the supply lines were for all the loot they were sending home.
- astrange 4y agoHunter-gathering only works as long as you know which local plants are good and which are poison, I'd assume.
- xyzzyz 4y agoYou can ask locals about that.
- the-printer 4y agoThe locals…of the territory you just conquered?
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- thereare5lights 4y agoYes. What are the locals going to do? Refuse? Ok, then they kill you. Lie? They force you to eat some.
- the-printer 4y agoA-ha.
- xyzzyz 4y agoDo you have actual argument here, or is contentless sneering the extent of your capabilities?
- the-printer 4y agoNo (thereare5lights made a good point, deflating my sneer) and no (this is self-evident).
- jrumbut 4y agoThey weren't hunter-gatherers, they were pastoral and nomadic. Their diet was a lot of milk and meat. They even had a fermented milk drink that was highly praised in Marco Polo's book.
- twelve40 4y agoHunter-gathering? you missed by 4+ish millenniums. These were people who had written laws and express mail relay system across the entire Eurasia.
- bobbylarrybobby 4y agoThe problem with that strategy is you can never stay too long in one place or you'll exhaust the food supply (for both your soldiers and your horses). If you're ever rebuffed and you don't have supply lines delivering you food, you just starve.
- qwytw 4y agoAlso you have to stick to grasslands which is supposedly one of the other reasons why the Mongols didn't venture to deep into Europe.
- twelve40 4y agoWikipedia on Ogedei: > he developed ortogh trading systems, instituted methods of tax collection, and established regional bureaucracies which controlled legal and economic affairs just collecting the taxes on such a huge territory sounds like a pretty big undertaking, let alone all these other things mentioned
- dmfay 4y agoSupply chains in the sense of a centralized (or multi-centralized) logistics no, supply chains in the sense of mobile pastoral groups supporting armies' further extension yes. These did not stretch all the way back to central Asia. Groups like the White and Blue hordes, which later combined into the Golden Horde, were basically autonomous within the territory allotted them by the Qaghan -- they mostly owed the central authority a share of spoils, support for the postal system (örtöö or yam), and their presence when convened on matters of state. Armies would bring limited supplies with them as they campaigned, replacement horses and some small livestock, while the main group continued to focus on caring for the bulk of their herds. While not actively expanding their borders, steppe nomads usually moved between relatively well-established seasonal camps rather than continuously roaming.
- steele 4y ago[flagged]
- likecarter 4y agoIs all of Europe now Western Europe? News to me.
- steele 4y ago[flagged]
- dang 4y agoMaybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to HN. If you know more than other people, that's great, and one option is to share some of what you know (in a neutral, respectful way) so the rest of us can learn. Another option is simply not to post. But please don't do putdowns or flamewar. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- mannykannot 4y agoIs it out of the question that they could have done in Europe what they did in China? On the other hand, it seems likely that the resulting empire would fracture into a collection of Khanates, as that is what happened to the actual empire.
- qwytw 4y ago> There were roughly 100x as many Europeans as Mongolians in the 13th century Well by the time their armies arrived in Europe 'true' Mongols were a minority. Just like the Huns and other stepped empires they included many Turkish, Cuman, Finno-Ugric and other nomadic tribes. > Conquering they much territory is an extremely unusual event Steppe empires weren't that rare though we just don't have that much information on those preceding the Mongols. Obviously they were much more successful than their predecessors but not necessarily that exceptional.