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If it wasn’t huge PITA we probably would. Like I try my best to be write well-behaved programs but there’s a cliff of unknown unknowns that is basically bottoml

by Spivak 4y ago

If it wasn’t huge PITA we probably would. Like I try my best to be write well-behaved programs but there’s a cliff of unknown unknowns that is basically bottomless and is known only to people who grew up with the incremental changes. Stepping through 40 years of organic development by a bunch of different groups whose decisions were based on the limitations of the time is just not gonna happen. But if you don't trying to understand where we ended up will drive you mad. You just pick some closed subset of behaviors / features that exist where your programs run and hope.

grugagag 4y ago
I hope someone will create a bridge over the cliff or maybe reinvent a whole landscape without the accumulated cruft over the decades. Till the only the brave will be able to master this space
gjvc 4y ago
there’s a cliff of unknown unknowns that is basically bottomless and is known only to people who grew up with the incremental changes. Don't give this stuff any more reverence than it deserves (which is none). Bob Barton [1] once said "Systems programmers are high priests of a low art." You don't need to know all the incremental changes, unless the allure of becoming a historian and being able to recount all the developments in the space appeals to you. (Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.) There is no mystery except the one you make for yourself. Read books. https://man7.org/tlpi/ https://man7.org/tlpi/ is a good place to start. Good luck! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Barton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Barton
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  Are you also going to do this for the network stack? Graphics? Kernel & syscalls? File systems? DATABASES?? Is there any time left to do work in is there any time left to love your family? There is also humility in just accepting that my curiosity is greater than my capacity and I'll never know much of anything about anything. I can pick a few things to go deep in but so far it hasn't needed to be terminals and that's not a moral failing.
  - gjvc 4y ago
    Being an expert in anything is demanding.
saurik 4y ago
Are we still talking about "command line applications"? Because your comment is exactly how I feel about web development, and somehow all the "younger developers" are more than happy to sit around with seemingly infinitely-complex GUI front-end stacks that only have some indirect relationship to JavaScript.
- the_only_law 4y ago
  Tbh I agree with both of you. Things feel fucked all around.
- throw_m239339 4y ago
  I mean front-end development relies heavily on CLI to compile, optimize, bundle, test stuffs with its gazillion of half baked "make" imitations... every single framework comes with their own CLI tools, and to make everything work together another layer of CLI tools needs to be added on top... which result in slow compilation times, the irony of Javascript in the browser which was designed to be a thin layer of dynamic interactions with HTML documents you only had to refresh the page after editing a script... It's safe to say that front-end development is now more complex than JEE...
- Spivak 4y ago
  I mean kinda, someone who has been following web development since jQuery and MooTools is going to grok everything way better than someone who is standing today looking backwards, gazing into the labyrinthine nightmare that is the modern JS stack. Either you were around for when each part was introduced and it was a gradual descent into madness where the next step was a natural progression from the previous, or you weren't and now you're in the center of the maze without a map and in your mania you desperately try to invent higher level primitives and metaphors that let you reason about... well anything at all. But they're all falsehoods that break down eventually and require an elder or time spent with the sacred texts to achieve enlightenment. Repeat the cycle and you get a senior dev in <something: webdev> whose skills are only kinda transferrable to <other thing: CLIs> and you must start your journey over again. So you have arch mages in webdev who are a acolytes in systems and the only way they'll progress to is write a lot of bad code. I'll get there eventually but how long it takes is dependent on how many opportunities I get to cut my teeth on stuff that requires a more complete understanding.
Beltalowda 4y ago
You don't need to "step through 40 years of organic development" unless you want super-fancy things like an interactive TUI with mouse support or whatnot (and even then, it's not that hard). For most regular CLIs you need a few control codes which are pretty much universal today (setting text attributes, clear line) and that's it. CLI apps are probably the easiest applications that accept user input to make. Compared to GUI or web apps the amount of knowledge you need is almost trivial.
mixmastamyk 4y ago
Decently-sized yet bounded: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Programming_in_the_Unix_Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Programming_in_the_Un... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Unix_Programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Unix_Programming I've only read the second cover to cover. Not as much there as you might think, the bulk was laid out in the 70s and 80s when most of an OS could fit in one person's brain. Not much has been added since, basically extended color and a dozen or so sequences for hypertext links, etc. I recommend these books. You could use a well-maintained terminal library or two in the meantime.

by Spivak 4y ago

grugagag 4y ago

I hope someone will create a bridge over the cliff or maybe reinvent a whole landscape without the accumulated cruft over the decades. Till the only the brave will be able to master this space

gjvc 4y ago

there’s a cliff of unknown unknowns that is basically bottomless and is known only to people who grew up with the incremental changes. Don't give this stuff any more reverence than it deserves (which is none). Bob Barton [1] once said "Systems programmers are high priests of a low art." You don't need to know all the incremental changes, unless the allure of becoming a historian and being able to recount all the developments in the space appeals to you. (Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.) There is no mystery except the one you make for yourself. Read books. https://man7.org/tlpi/ https://man7.org/tlpi/ is a good place to start. Good luck! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Barton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Barton

giraffe_lady 4y ago
Are you also going to do this for the network stack? Graphics? Kernel & syscalls? File systems? DATABASES?? Is there any time left to do work in is there any time left to love your family? There is also humility in just accepting that my curiosity is greater than my capacity and I'll never know much of anything about anything. I can pick a few things to go deep in but so far it hasn't needed to be terminals and that's not a moral failing.
- gjvc 4y ago
  Being an expert in anything is demanding.

saurik 4y ago

Are we still talking about "command line applications"? Because your comment is exactly how I feel about web development, and somehow all the "younger developers" are more than happy to sit around with seemingly infinitely-complex GUI front-end stacks that only have some indirect relationship to JavaScript.

the_only_law 4y ago
Tbh I agree with both of you. Things feel fucked all around.
throw_m239339 4y ago
I mean front-end development relies heavily on CLI to compile, optimize, bundle, test stuffs with its gazillion of half baked "make" imitations... every single framework comes with their own CLI tools, and to make everything work together another layer of CLI tools needs to be added on top... which result in slow compilation times, the irony of Javascript in the browser which was designed to be a thin layer of dynamic interactions with HTML documents you only had to refresh the page after editing a script... It's safe to say that front-end development is now more complex than JEE...
Spivak 4y ago
I mean kinda, someone who has been following web development since jQuery and MooTools is going to grok everything way better than someone who is standing today looking backwards, gazing into the labyrinthine nightmare that is the modern JS stack. Either you were around for when each part was introduced and it was a gradual descent into madness where the next step was a natural progression from the previous, or you weren't and now you're in the center of the maze without a map and in your mania you desperately try to invent higher level primitives and metaphors that let you reason about... well anything at all. But they're all falsehoods that break down eventually and require an elder or time spent with the sacred texts to achieve enlightenment. Repeat the cycle and you get a senior dev in <something: webdev> whose skills are only kinda transferrable to <other thing: CLIs> and you must start your journey over again. So you have arch mages in webdev who are a acolytes in systems and the only way they'll progress to is write a lot of bad code. I'll get there eventually but how long it takes is dependent on how many opportunities I get to cut my teeth on stuff that requires a more complete understanding.

Beltalowda 4y ago

You don't need to "step through 40 years of organic development" unless you want super-fancy things like an interactive TUI with mouse support or whatnot (and even then, it's not that hard). For most regular CLIs you need a few control codes which are pretty much universal today (setting text attributes, clear line) and that's it. CLI apps are probably the easiest applications that accept user input to make. Compared to GUI or web apps the amount of knowledge you need is almost trivial.

mixmastamyk 4y ago

Decently-sized yet bounded: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Programming_in_the_Unix_Environment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Programming_in_the_Un... - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Unix_Programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Unix_Programming I've only read the second cover to cover. Not as much there as you might think, the bulk was laid out in the 70s and 80s when most of an OS could fit in one person's brain. Not much has been added since, basically extended color and a dozen or so sequences for hypertext links, etc. I recommend these books. You could use a well-maintained terminal library or two in the meantime.