2 ms·

That has nothing to do with the fact that $100 is affordable to the average college student working at a fast food company. But even if I buy your argument, ar

That has nothing to do with the fact that $100 is affordable to the average college student working at a fast food company. But even if I buy your argument, are you saying that selling software also has no value since once you write it, the marginal cost of delivering software is basically $0

smoldesu 4y ago
Distributing software has zero cost. Apple can bundle services with it (vuln scanning, CI/CD, cloud resources, etc.) but copying data is inherently a free process. You may object to that all you wish, but the entirety of the internet stands as evidence that software distribution is normalized and free. The problem was never that Apple wanted to offer cloud resources or scan for known exploits. Go wild, Microsoft does that too and it works great for them. People are only mad when Apple conflates completely arbitrary capabilities with their $99 dev service fee. I should not need a recurring subscription to install an App from Github. We're not in 2005 anymore, we're done selling feature phones.
- scarface74 4y ago
  So once software is made, delivering it to the customer is just “delivering data”. Do you think that all software should be free and people shouldn’t charge for software?
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    All software is free. I have 4 versions of MacOS archived on my disk right now, and you can get your own copies on the internet archive. Want to pirate Mac software? Go get it, nobody will stop you. The only price that everyone pays on the internet, is free. Every platform that respects the freedom and authority of it's users seems to agree that all software is free. As Apple is an American company, it would make me very happy to see them agree with those values.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Are you a software developer? How does your company make money?
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        Selling support.
- joenot443 4y ago
  Distributing software is inherently not a zero cost process and it suggests an amount of ignorance in the space to say that it is. I’ve been paying the $100/yr to sell my iPhone apps since I was 15. It’s really not very much money, even to a high school kid. I think this is the first time I’ve seen someone dig in so passionately that the fee is unreasonable. Most people just pay it and keep building.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    The fee isn't unreasonable. The things they block off is. Until Apple lets me install an IPA file as easily as something from the App Store, I will mercilessly mock them for extorting the very developers that make them rich. The closing noose is why I left MacOS, and the reason why I could never daily-drive iOS. It's dumb, and anti-consumer. I'll happily answer any further questions, but I'm afraid my opinion isn't as interesting as you think it is.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      What does any of this have to do with Mac development? Anyone can already install anything on the Mac even if it is unsigned by right clicking.
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        I'm replying to the parent, who was talking about selling and distributing iPhone apps. Moreover, this discussion started with me highlighting which things should be in the subscription (CI/CD time, VPSes, direct support) versus things that shouldn't be in it (freely managing arbitrary software). Conflating the iPhone's capabilities with the developer program is Apple's fault, not mine.
- 0ct4via 4y ago
  Most people aren't "mad" about this -- and in this case, GP is complaining that they simply don't want to, not that they can't afford it or anything. There are also fee waivers available for registered non-profits, those in education etc. -- so it's not as binary as you're making out. You also don't need any subscription to install any macOS app, but without it being signed by a developer, you have to -- le gasp -- control-click or right-click, and accept the warning that the developer is unverified. Hardly a massive tax on end users.

smoldesu 4y ago

Distributing software has zero cost. Apple can bundle services with it (vuln scanning, CI/CD, cloud resources, etc.) but copying data is inherently a free process. You may object to that all you wish, but the entirety of the internet stands as evidence that software distribution is normalized and free. The problem was never that Apple wanted to offer cloud resources or scan for known exploits. Go wild, Microsoft does that too and it works great for them. People are only mad when Apple conflates completely arbitrary capabilities with their $99 dev service fee. I should not need a recurring subscription to install an App from Github. We're not in 2005 anymore, we're done selling feature phones.

scarface74 4y ago
So once software is made, delivering it to the customer is just “delivering data”. Do you think that all software should be free and people shouldn’t charge for software?
- smoldesu 4y ago
  All software is free. I have 4 versions of MacOS archived on my disk right now, and you can get your own copies on the internet archive. Want to pirate Mac software? Go get it, nobody will stop you. The only price that everyone pays on the internet, is free. Every platform that respects the freedom and authority of it's users seems to agree that all software is free. As Apple is an American company, it would make me very happy to see them agree with those values.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Are you a software developer? How does your company make money?
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Selling support.
joenot443 4y ago
Distributing software is inherently not a zero cost process and it suggests an amount of ignorance in the space to say that it is. I’ve been paying the $100/yr to sell my iPhone apps since I was 15. It’s really not very much money, even to a high school kid. I think this is the first time I’ve seen someone dig in so passionately that the fee is unreasonable. Most people just pay it and keep building.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  The fee isn't unreasonable. The things they block off is. Until Apple lets me install an IPA file as easily as something from the App Store, I will mercilessly mock them for extorting the very developers that make them rich. The closing noose is why I left MacOS, and the reason why I could never daily-drive iOS. It's dumb, and anti-consumer. I'll happily answer any further questions, but I'm afraid my opinion isn't as interesting as you think it is.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    What does any of this have to do with Mac development? Anyone can already install anything on the Mac even if it is unsigned by right clicking.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      I'm replying to the parent, who was talking about selling and distributing iPhone apps. Moreover, this discussion started with me highlighting which things should be in the subscription (CI/CD time, VPSes, direct support) versus things that shouldn't be in it (freely managing arbitrary software). Conflating the iPhone's capabilities with the developer program is Apple's fault, not mine.
0ct4via 4y ago
Most people aren't "mad" about this -- and in this case, GP is complaining that they simply don't want to, not that they can't afford it or anything. There are also fee waivers available for registered non-profits, those in education etc. -- so it's not as binary as you're making out. You also don't need any subscription to install any macOS app, but without it being signed by a developer, you have to -- le gasp -- control-click or right-click, and accept the warning that the developer is unverified. Hardly a massive tax on end users.