4 ms·

Parents have a responsibility of best interest for their children. Not vaccinating them so they can die from chicken pox is unforgivable, sorry.

ominous 4y ago
It sounds like a good response only if you ignore the real point being raised: when coerced, a being who thinks of itself as having free will fights back at least a small amount. Do you disagree?
- eesmith 4y ago
  That summary is so high-level and abstract as to be useless. At that level, we face coercion all the time: a traffic light is a form of coercion backed by the threat of state violence. Does fighting back against that coercion explain why people run red lights? Moreover, if it's the expected human response, what explains the 2% difference between now and the 2019-2020 school year? Do more people now think of themselves as having free will than a few years ago?
  - iinnPP 4y ago
    Your example is correct. The 2% is why you don't force vaccine mandates. There are studies showing it (pre covid) and we knew the entire time what would happen. It's so common sense I have to just fu*ing laugh about it all. Sorry.
  - ominous 4y ago
    Do you agree with every single traffic light in every single circunstance (place, and your timing)? Moreover, do you agree with every future traffic light that will ever be placed?
    - eesmith 4y ago
      My disagreements with a traffic light placement so far have not been based on a don't-tread-on-me sense of The Man treading on my free will. For example, I strongly prefer a modern roundabout for many of the places where the US uses a stop sign or traffic light. But my argument is made on increased safety and improved traffic flow. I once accidentally ran a red light because I got confused about which traffic light was for my lane. My father once deliberately ran a red light. After waiting for 5 minutes in the middle of the night. Because the detector didn't sense his motorcycle. A cop ticketed him. My father went to court and the judge ruled that what my father did was reasonable. So while I'm certain that someone, somewhere ran a red light because of moral outrage over repressive government, that's not main reason people run a red light. Just like this linked-to article seems to describe that the drop in routine vaccinations does not seem primarily due to increased vaccine hesitance due to the covid pandemic, even though certainly that is a reason for a few people.
      - ominous 4y ago
        > So while I'm certain that someone, somewhere ran a red light because of moral outrage over repressive government, that's not main reason people run a red light. So you agree coercion causes pushback. A bit tricky to get that out of you. Thank you for the exchange.
        eesmith 4y ago
        Like I said, your point is "so high-level and abstract as to be useless." I expect far more people have run a red light because they were texting than as pushback against coercion. It appears far more kids have failed to receive their MMR shots due to pandemic-related interruptions in children’s medical visits than parental pushback against coercion.
        ominous 4y ago
        > Like I said, your point is "so high-level and abstract as to be useless." It is not useless. It tells you coercion, if applied to fix these other reasons, could be counterproductive.
        eesmith 4y ago
        "Could" is doing a lot of work there. It could also be productive. (Another example of "so high-level and abstract as to be useless".) Here's a counter-example. Assume 99% of the people who run a red light / haven't vaccinated their kid, do so for some reason totally disconnected from reacting to coercion, and 1% of the people are fighting The Man. Now we change the coercive circumstances [1] so that 98% of those people now stop at a red light / have vaccinated their kids, the 1% still haven't changed, and an additional 1% have joined them. That means the overall number of red light runners / non-vaccinated children go down significantly. Which means those changes are productive. [1] For traffic lights this might include: higher fines, more active police enforcement, propaganda campaigns about the dangers of running a red light, changing the lights to be more visible. For vaccination these might include: remind parents of vaccination requirements, provide in-school and home-visit vaccination services, and increase propaganda campaigns.
mach1ne 4y ago
It’s not about the morality of something, that’s another discussion. It’s the objective why.
MarcoZavala 4y ago
[dead]
phpisthebest 4y ago
Government agencies have a responsibility not to lie to the public to achieve what they think is a "greater good". The have a responsibility not to just change the definition of words like vaccine to fit their political goals The failure here is not parents it is every single person in power and every single spineless person that unquestionably was regurgitating the dracionian narratives of those in power the last 2+ years
- pavlov 4y ago
  No, the failure is still the parents. They’re the ones choosing to expose their children to deadly diseases. That was true five years ago and it’s equally true now — we’re talking about the same routine vaccines. Nothing that happened during the Covid-19 pandemic changed that.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Are we... Is the COVID-19 vaccine not added to that "routine"
    - pavlov 4y ago
      It is not.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        You are responding based in the research paper who were looking at the non COVID vaccines however as another poster has indicated a lot of doctors are only doing vaccinations if parents "agree to all required vaccines" which in most areas of the US they have added COVID to that list So if doctors are only giving the other vaccines if parents alos.agree to the COVID one then naturally parents that are refusing just COVID one will also have to refuse the others Seems like a bad idea to hold the other vaccines hostage unless people agree to take the COVID treatment
- hestefisk 4y ago
  What lies, specifically?
lolinder 4y ago
I'm pro vaccines, but chicken pox isn't a great choice for making a rhetorical point. It's the least dangerous illness of the standard childhood vaccines, and was added recently enough that even millennials just lived with it (the vaccine became available in the US in 1995). Measles and polio are the ones I'd emphasize, not chicken pox.
- iinnPP 4y ago
  Super weird given the link between covid vaccines and Shingles.
- hestefisk 4y ago
  Fair enough. Polio is a better example. Either way, you get the gist.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> Not vaccinating [children] so they can die from chicken pox is unforgivable, sorry. Children don't die from chicken pox. It's only dangerous to adults.

ominous 4y ago

It sounds like a good response only if you ignore the real point being raised: when coerced, a being who thinks of itself as having free will fights back at least a small amount. Do you disagree?

eesmith 4y ago
That summary is so high-level and abstract as to be useless. At that level, we face coercion all the time: a traffic light is a form of coercion backed by the threat of state violence. Does fighting back against that coercion explain why people run red lights? Moreover, if it's the expected human response, what explains the 2% difference between now and the 2019-2020 school year? Do more people now think of themselves as having free will than a few years ago?
- iinnPP 4y ago
  Your example is correct. The 2% is why you don't force vaccine mandates. There are studies showing it (pre covid) and we knew the entire time what would happen. It's so common sense I have to just fu*ing laugh about it all. Sorry.
- ominous 4y ago
  Do you agree with every single traffic light in every single circunstance (place, and your timing)? Moreover, do you agree with every future traffic light that will ever be placed?
  - eesmith 4y ago
    My disagreements with a traffic light placement so far have not been based on a don't-tread-on-me sense of The Man treading on my free will. For example, I strongly prefer a modern roundabout for many of the places where the US uses a stop sign or traffic light. But my argument is made on increased safety and improved traffic flow. I once accidentally ran a red light because I got confused about which traffic light was for my lane. My father once deliberately ran a red light. After waiting for 5 minutes in the middle of the night. Because the detector didn't sense his motorcycle. A cop ticketed him. My father went to court and the judge ruled that what my father did was reasonable. So while I'm certain that someone, somewhere ran a red light because of moral outrage over repressive government, that's not main reason people run a red light. Just like this linked-to article seems to describe that the drop in routine vaccinations does not seem primarily due to increased vaccine hesitance due to the covid pandemic, even though certainly that is a reason for a few people.
    - ominous 4y ago
      > So while I'm certain that someone, somewhere ran a red light because of moral outrage over repressive government, that's not main reason people run a red light. So you agree coercion causes pushback. A bit tricky to get that out of you. Thank you for the exchange.
      - eesmith 4y ago
        Like I said, your point is "so high-level and abstract as to be useless." I expect far more people have run a red light because they were texting than as pushback against coercion. It appears far more kids have failed to receive their MMR shots due to pandemic-related interruptions in children’s medical visits than parental pushback against coercion.
        ominous 4y ago
        > Like I said, your point is "so high-level and abstract as to be useless." It is not useless. It tells you coercion, if applied to fix these other reasons, could be counterproductive.
        eesmith 4y ago
        "Could" is doing a lot of work there. It could also be productive. (Another example of "so high-level and abstract as to be useless".) Here's a counter-example. Assume 99% of the people who run a red light / haven't vaccinated their kid, do so for some reason totally disconnected from reacting to coercion, and 1% of the people are fighting The Man. Now we change the coercive circumstances [1] so that 98% of those people now stop at a red light / have vaccinated their kids, the 1% still haven't changed, and an additional 1% have joined them. That means the overall number of red light runners / non-vaccinated children go down significantly. Which means those changes are productive. [1] For traffic lights this might include: higher fines, more active police enforcement, propaganda campaigns about the dangers of running a red light, changing the lights to be more visible. For vaccination these might include: remind parents of vaccination requirements, provide in-school and home-visit vaccination services, and increase propaganda campaigns.

mach1ne 4y ago

It’s not about the morality of something, that’s another discussion. It’s the objective why.

MarcoZavala 4y ago

[dead]

phpisthebest 4y ago

Government agencies have a responsibility not to lie to the public to achieve what they think is a "greater good". The have a responsibility not to just change the definition of words like vaccine to fit their political goals The failure here is not parents it is every single person in power and every single spineless person that unquestionably was regurgitating the dracionian narratives of those in power the last 2+ years

pavlov 4y ago
No, the failure is still the parents. They’re the ones choosing to expose their children to deadly diseases. That was true five years ago and it’s equally true now — we’re talking about the same routine vaccines. Nothing that happened during the Covid-19 pandemic changed that.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Are we... Is the COVID-19 vaccine not added to that "routine"
  - pavlov 4y ago
    It is not.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      You are responding based in the research paper who were looking at the non COVID vaccines however as another poster has indicated a lot of doctors are only doing vaccinations if parents "agree to all required vaccines" which in most areas of the US they have added COVID to that list So if doctors are only giving the other vaccines if parents alos.agree to the COVID one then naturally parents that are refusing just COVID one will also have to refuse the others Seems like a bad idea to hold the other vaccines hostage unless people agree to take the COVID treatment
hestefisk 4y ago
What lies, specifically?

lolinder 4y ago

I'm pro vaccines, but chicken pox isn't a great choice for making a rhetorical point. It's the least dangerous illness of the standard childhood vaccines, and was added recently enough that even millennials just lived with it (the vaccine became available in the US in 1995). Measles and polio are the ones I'd emphasize, not chicken pox.

iinnPP 4y ago
Super weird given the link between covid vaccines and Shingles.
hestefisk 4y ago
Fair enough. Polio is a better example. Either way, you get the gist.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> Not vaccinating [children] so they can die from chicken pox is unforgivable, sorry. Children don't die from chicken pox. It's only dangerous to adults.