5 ms·

The idea you need synthetic, mind-altering drugs to "be yourself" is tautologically absurd on its face, and this kind of discourse is pushed by manufacturers of

The idea you need synthetic, mind-altering drugs to "be yourself" is tautologically absurd on its face, and this kind of discourse is pushed by manufacturers of those drugs.

Tenoke 4y ago
That's a wild claim. It's not as unlikely as you think for someone who enjoys something to praise it on their own.
stuaxo 4y ago
Of course you don't need them to. At the same thing I doubt this article is some output of "big MDMA". I can definitely say the authors experience chimes with my own, talking to people openly at after parties sorted out a lot of things for me - with apologies to anyone that became my adhoc therapist at the time. Of course there are downsides; one upside of feeling terrible on a Wednesday is the realisation that it was vecause of going out on a Friday. What's worse is feeling terrible and it's during a time where you haven't been going out partying.
- doctor_eval 4y ago
  There was a specific phrase in my circles for that particular kind of Wednesday, but sadly I’ve forgotten what it was.
  - simonswords82 4y ago
    I've heard it called "Suicide Tuesday" or perhaps "Suicide Wednesday" in your case
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
maxbond 4y ago
I need mind altering substances to avoid anxiety and depression; I wholly reject the idea that without these substances, I am my "true self." My intrusive thoughts and self doubts aren't mystically good just because my mind produces them in the absence of substances; the feeling of self actualization I have if I use substances and am able to move past that headspace and reclaim my creativity (what I personally call "feeling like myself again") is no less real for having involved substances.
- stormdennis 4y ago
  Good post. Are there any downsides? I use alcohol to excess, a habit I developed in the days when socialising was something I wanted/needed to do but needed help with it.
  - maxbond 4y ago
    Let me be clear that I don't use ecstasy to regulate my mood (or, personally, at all) and that I'm not a doctor. I use marijuana to break out of loops of anxiety and repetitive, intrusive thoughts (blessedly legal where I live), and there are some modest downsides, mostly that it's expensive and only works if used in moderation. It helps snap me out of anxiety attacks and shorten the duration of depressive episodes but it isn't magic, I still have to confront my issues and work towards making my life better. Virtually everyone I know has struggled with anxiety and/or depression and has had success going to therapy and taking some sort of antidepressant. Many of them had to go through several therapists & medications until they found a therapist they meshed with and a prescription/dosage that worked for them; it's a difficult and frustrating process, but I've seen it really work for people in my life. Like I said, I'm not a doctor, I can only give the most general advice, but it is my belief that if you want your life to be different, it's a real possibility, it's something worth working towards, and if you feel that you use alcohol in excess, it's worth considering whether a professional can help you to identify a different strategy/medication.
  - colordrops 4y ago
    The hangover can be brutal. Especially if you do more than one dose in a night. Don't do that.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  Aren't these selves both just... you though? I get that one state of mind is more desirable than the other, but denying that anxiety is part of your psychology makes it more seem like your "true self" is who you want to be than who you are. To be clear I'm not saying anxiety meds are bad or you're wrong for medicating or for wanting to not be racked by anxiety. There are many states of mind that are unpleasant. Anxiety, grief, doubt, jealousy, anger, and so on; and many behaviors that we may engage in that we rationally realize we should not, various forms of self-sabotage, unhealthy habits, and so on. I don't think saying because we don't like these things, these things aren't really your true self is helpful. They don't need to be part of us, but if we can't face the fact that they are, they will remain.
atoav 4y ago
You also don't need a beer to celebrate with friends. You also don't need a nice winter walk to find a deepened sense of feeling alive. You don't need a nice house and car to feel like you are worth something. The truth is, external things impact our lives. The substances consume, food we eat, landscapes we move through, people we talk to, objects we use, architecture we work and live in influences us more than we would like. Nobody would say "It is sad that you need that glas of Prosecco to celebrate New Year's with your friends." Because strictly speaking you don't really need it — it is just nicer that way. (Edit: unless of course you are an alcoholic, which is a real thing) This is the way that kind of party drug can work as well. You don't need it to be happy, but it is nicer that way.
- readthenotes1 4y ago
  "Nobody would say "It is sad that you need that glas of Prosecco to celebrate New Year's with your friends." Because strictly speaking you don't really need it " Of course, some people feel that they do actually need it and that is the rub with expressing positives about drugs or other externalities. Some people become addicted and those addictions can have incredibly negative effects on the people around them.
  - atoav 4y ago
    That goes without speaking. Drugs are not without risk and they are tricky because even smart people might fall into the trap of tricking themselves till it is too late. That being said the same is true of a lot of things as well. People can become addicted to social media, expressions of material wealth, porn, food, ... Literally everything that provides a dopamine boost in some way. The question depending on the specific object of desire is always how much of the addiction is in the "substance" and how much in the mind of the addicted person.
- joshuacc 4y ago
  “Nobody would say "It is sad that you need that glas of Prosecco to celebrate New Year's with your friends."” There are actually quite a large number of people who would say exactly that. It’s a minority position, but there are still quite a few people in the US who are opposed to alcohol consumption and have exactly the same concerns about it as other drugs. (Often, but not always, based in religious convictions.)
dkersten 4y ago
I’ve taken mdma at parties and concerts in the past. Without it, I had anxiety and am generally quiet and stiff, with it I’m out on the dance floor with everyone else having a good time.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
In a broader sense, I think it's worth exploring the notion that there is such a thing as a true self that you're normally not able to access, that may be revealed through some process of therapy, insight, meditation ritual or drugs. I'm not sure where it comes from, and there are some pretty concerning inconsistencies with the notion if you scrutinize it.
- brazzy 4y ago
  I think it makes more sense to think about "different selves", and that it can be an enriching experience to let the non-default ones out more often.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  I don't think one needs drugs for that kind of exploration. It is relatively obvious, that me vs me armed with Wikipedia are quite different. There are many ways you can slice it.
doctor_eval 4y ago
They never said that they needed it. They said that this was their experience. That they were their best selves.
jackstraw14 4y ago
to "be yourself," sure you don't need drugs. it's the finding yourself part.
quickthrower2 4y ago
The article doesn’t describe it that way. More like turning off parts if your brain and letting other parts come to the forefront. Thinking of your brain this way, that you have multiple zones I guess jostling for control is an interesting concept. Personally I was too scared by the Leah Betts type thing (mentioned in the article) at the time to try E and I was had a perhaps irrational fear that drugs would affect academic performance and basically lower my IQ so I never did them. Of course the main thing I should have been scared of is my first year of driving a car, statistically!
- hutzlibu 4y ago
  "drugs would affect academic performance and basically lower my IQ" That is not irrational, but very real. Not from taken once or twice, but from excess. Same with alcohol, though. "the main thing I should have been scared of is my first year of driving a car, statistically" And the statistics of those doing excessive drugs while driving are considerably worse.
malthaus 4y ago
The idea that you reject such powerful (and yes, dangerous) tools due to the societal stigma to "drugs" is sad and the reason research only now starts to pick up again, way too late. It's absurd, especially in the US, how a crazy amount of people is put on anti-depressants for years instead.
- jojobas 4y ago
  Whataboutism doesn't help. Drugs do destroy lives and it's hard to offset by a bunch of hippies making them a centrepiece of theirs.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
EliRivers 4y ago
The whole point is that sometimes I don't want to be myself. I want to be a bit different. Happier, for example.
concordDance 4y ago
It's more about being your best self. There is a range of "you"ness, many possible versions of you, angling for a particular one is just self improvement, even if done by artificial means.
andybak 4y ago
> this kind of discourse is pushed by manufacturers of those drugs. This is a very odd and misinformed take. I can't believe you could have had much contact with MDMA users and still say this.
msla 4y ago
I realize the article is about MDMA, but clinical depression or crippling anxiety isn't anyone's true self.
abetusk 4y ago
Many people struggle with anxiety, depression, lack of energy or other, sometimes extremely harsh and severe, mental issues. To blanketly dismiss the problems people encounter and then to condemn the possibility of treatment or relief is callous and impulsive.
jimvdv 4y ago
Mind altering drugs allows one to glimpse what kind of person one could be if they where e.g more empathetic or less anxious. It can help people better understand such feelings. I can understand the “true self” narrative, when one loses their constant anxiety for on a trip for example, those feeling suddenly start to feel different in sober life, as if they are no longer a part of you but instead are with you. Hence why you discover your “true self”, who does not have such negative feelings.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  > Mind altering drugs allows one to glimpse what kind of person one could be Or you could just watch a movie, you know? Or, god forbid, use some imagination.
immibis 4y ago
yeah, that "I wanted to dance to the music" and "I felt connected to people" - uhhh, I feel that just by being in a dark room with music and dancing and other people enjoying it. That's just the club atmosphere. Takes a little time to get into it though.

The idea you need synthetic, mind-altering drugs to "be yourself" is tautologically absurd on its face, and this kind of discourse is pushed by manufacturers of those drugs.

Tenoke 4y ago

That's a wild claim. It's not as unlikely as you think for someone who enjoys something to praise it on their own.

stuaxo 4y ago

Of course you don't need them to. At the same thing I doubt this article is some output of "big MDMA". I can definitely say the authors experience chimes with my own, talking to people openly at after parties sorted out a lot of things for me - with apologies to anyone that became my adhoc therapist at the time. Of course there are downsides; one upside of feeling terrible on a Wednesday is the realisation that it was vecause of going out on a Friday. What's worse is feeling terrible and it's during a time where you haven't been going out partying.

doctor_eval 4y ago
There was a specific phrase in my circles for that particular kind of Wednesday, but sadly I’ve forgotten what it was.
- simonswords82 4y ago
  I've heard it called "Suicide Tuesday" or perhaps "Suicide Wednesday" in your case
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

maxbond 4y ago

I need mind altering substances to avoid anxiety and depression; I wholly reject the idea that without these substances, I am my "true self." My intrusive thoughts and self doubts aren't mystically good just because my mind produces them in the absence of substances; the feeling of self actualization I have if I use substances and am able to move past that headspace and reclaim my creativity (what I personally call "feeling like myself again") is no less real for having involved substances.

stormdennis 4y ago
Good post. Are there any downsides? I use alcohol to excess, a habit I developed in the days when socialising was something I wanted/needed to do but needed help with it.
- maxbond 4y ago
  Let me be clear that I don't use ecstasy to regulate my mood (or, personally, at all) and that I'm not a doctor. I use marijuana to break out of loops of anxiety and repetitive, intrusive thoughts (blessedly legal where I live), and there are some modest downsides, mostly that it's expensive and only works if used in moderation. It helps snap me out of anxiety attacks and shorten the duration of depressive episodes but it isn't magic, I still have to confront my issues and work towards making my life better. Virtually everyone I know has struggled with anxiety and/or depression and has had success going to therapy and taking some sort of antidepressant. Many of them had to go through several therapists & medications until they found a therapist they meshed with and a prescription/dosage that worked for them; it's a difficult and frustrating process, but I've seen it really work for people in my life. Like I said, I'm not a doctor, I can only give the most general advice, but it is my belief that if you want your life to be different, it's a real possibility, it's something worth working towards, and if you feel that you use alcohol in excess, it's worth considering whether a professional can help you to identify a different strategy/medication.
- colordrops 4y ago
  The hangover can be brutal. Especially if you do more than one dose in a night. Don't do that.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
Aren't these selves both just... you though? I get that one state of mind is more desirable than the other, but denying that anxiety is part of your psychology makes it more seem like your "true self" is who you want to be than who you are. To be clear I'm not saying anxiety meds are bad or you're wrong for medicating or for wanting to not be racked by anxiety. There are many states of mind that are unpleasant. Anxiety, grief, doubt, jealousy, anger, and so on; and many behaviors that we may engage in that we rationally realize we should not, various forms of self-sabotage, unhealthy habits, and so on. I don't think saying because we don't like these things, these things aren't really your true self is helpful. They don't need to be part of us, but if we can't face the fact that they are, they will remain.

atoav 4y ago

You also don't need a beer to celebrate with friends. You also don't need a nice winter walk to find a deepened sense of feeling alive. You don't need a nice house and car to feel like you are worth something. The truth is, external things impact our lives. The substances consume, food we eat, landscapes we move through, people we talk to, objects we use, architecture we work and live in influences us more than we would like. Nobody would say "It is sad that you need that glas of Prosecco to celebrate New Year's with your friends." Because strictly speaking you don't really need it — it is just nicer that way. (Edit: unless of course you are an alcoholic, which is a real thing) This is the way that kind of party drug can work as well. You don't need it to be happy, but it is nicer that way.

readthenotes1 4y ago
"Nobody would say "It is sad that you need that glas of Prosecco to celebrate New Year's with your friends." Because strictly speaking you don't really need it " Of course, some people feel that they do actually need it and that is the rub with expressing positives about drugs or other externalities. Some people become addicted and those addictions can have incredibly negative effects on the people around them.
- atoav 4y ago
  That goes without speaking. Drugs are not without risk and they are tricky because even smart people might fall into the trap of tricking themselves till it is too late. That being said the same is true of a lot of things as well. People can become addicted to social media, expressions of material wealth, porn, food, ... Literally everything that provides a dopamine boost in some way. The question depending on the specific object of desire is always how much of the addiction is in the "substance" and how much in the mind of the addicted person.
joshuacc 4y ago
“Nobody would say "It is sad that you need that glas of Prosecco to celebrate New Year's with your friends."” There are actually quite a large number of people who would say exactly that. It’s a minority position, but there are still quite a few people in the US who are opposed to alcohol consumption and have exactly the same concerns about it as other drugs. (Often, but not always, based in religious convictions.)

dkersten 4y ago

I’ve taken mdma at parties and concerts in the past. Without it, I had anxiety and am generally quiet and stiff, with it I’m out on the dance floor with everyone else having a good time.

marginalia_nu 4y ago

In a broader sense, I think it's worth exploring the notion that there is such a thing as a true self that you're normally not able to access, that may be revealed through some process of therapy, insight, meditation ritual or drugs. I'm not sure where it comes from, and there are some pretty concerning inconsistencies with the notion if you scrutinize it.

brazzy 4y ago
I think it makes more sense to think about "different selves", and that it can be an enriching experience to let the non-default ones out more often.
lostmsu 4y ago
I don't think one needs drugs for that kind of exploration. It is relatively obvious, that me vs me armed with Wikipedia are quite different. There are many ways you can slice it.

doctor_eval 4y ago

They never said that they needed it. They said that this was their experience. That they were their best selves.

jackstraw14 4y ago

to "be yourself," sure you don't need drugs. it's the finding yourself part.

quickthrower2 4y ago

The article doesn’t describe it that way. More like turning off parts if your brain and letting other parts come to the forefront. Thinking of your brain this way, that you have multiple zones I guess jostling for control is an interesting concept. Personally I was too scared by the Leah Betts type thing (mentioned in the article) at the time to try E and I was had a perhaps irrational fear that drugs would affect academic performance and basically lower my IQ so I never did them. Of course the main thing I should have been scared of is my first year of driving a car, statistically!

hutzlibu 4y ago
"drugs would affect academic performance and basically lower my IQ" That is not irrational, but very real. Not from taken once or twice, but from excess. Same with alcohol, though. "the main thing I should have been scared of is my first year of driving a car, statistically" And the statistics of those doing excessive drugs while driving are considerably worse.

malthaus 4y ago

The idea that you reject such powerful (and yes, dangerous) tools due to the societal stigma to "drugs" is sad and the reason research only now starts to pick up again, way too late. It's absurd, especially in the US, how a crazy amount of people is put on anti-depressants for years instead.

jojobas 4y ago
Whataboutism doesn't help. Drugs do destroy lives and it's hard to offset by a bunch of hippies making them a centrepiece of theirs.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

EliRivers 4y ago

The whole point is that sometimes I don't want to be myself. I want to be a bit different. Happier, for example.

concordDance 4y ago

It's more about being your best self. There is a range of "you"ness, many possible versions of you, angling for a particular one is just self improvement, even if done by artificial means.

andybak 4y ago

> this kind of discourse is pushed by manufacturers of those drugs. This is a very odd and misinformed take. I can't believe you could have had much contact with MDMA users and still say this.

msla 4y ago

I realize the article is about MDMA, but clinical depression or crippling anxiety isn't anyone's true self.

abetusk 4y ago

Many people struggle with anxiety, depression, lack of energy or other, sometimes extremely harsh and severe, mental issues. To blanketly dismiss the problems people encounter and then to condemn the possibility of treatment or relief is callous and impulsive.

jimvdv 4y ago

Mind altering drugs allows one to glimpse what kind of person one could be if they where e.g more empathetic or less anxious. It can help people better understand such feelings. I can understand the “true self” narrative, when one loses their constant anxiety for on a trip for example, those feeling suddenly start to feel different in sober life, as if they are no longer a part of you but instead are with you. Hence why you discover your “true self”, who does not have such negative feelings.

lostmsu 4y ago
> Mind altering drugs allows one to glimpse what kind of person one could be Or you could just watch a movie, you know? Or, god forbid, use some imagination.

immibis 4y ago

yeah, that "I wanted to dance to the music" and "I felt connected to people" - uhhh, I feel that just by being in a dark room with music and dancing and other people enjoying it. That's just the club atmosphere. Takes a little time to get into it though.