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The debt ceiling is redundant and dangerous and should be abolished. It's a vote on whether or not to pay bills that have already been incurred. Every year Co

The debt ceiling is redundant and dangerous and should be abolished. It's a vote on whether or not to pay bills that have already been incurred. Every year Congress passes a budget that sets revenues and expenditures. If revenues exceed expenditures there is a budget surplus; if expenditures exceed revenues there is a budget deficit. Mathematically, the debt outstanding is simply the sum total of all annual budget surpluses and deficits going back to the founding of the nation. The required CHANGE to the debt over the course of a year is determined by that annual budget surplus/deficit, having a separate vote on it is absurd.

joshstrange 4y ago
CGP Grey has a pretty good (and short) video on this that I've enjoyed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIbkoop4AYE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIbkoop4AYE
jsmith45 4y ago
Yeah. The whole system is crazy. "The Budget" as proposed by the President every year (at a cost of millions) is often ignored pretty much entirely. Congress only sometimes passes their own budget (technically called a budget resolution), since that resolution only impacts certain procedures, and is not technically required. Instead what matters are authorizations and appropriations (and backdoor appropriations). Authorizations are occasionally passed, and set a cap on how much the government can spend on any area. Appropriations are passed yearly and tell the government how much they to spend in each area, which cannot be greater than the authorized amount. If something is authorized but congress forgets to appropriate money for it, it is usually still spent in practice either from general appropriations of the organization, or if not applicable, by pretending there was an appropriation of the correct amount. Similarly, if something is appropriated but congress never authorized it, the money will still be spent. Appropriations are generally viewed as required spending. The executive cannot just choose to only spend half the amount appropriated for building tanks (that the Army does not want anyway!). Thus congress largely controls both much gets spent. They also largely control the amount of income the government makes, by controlling taxes. As spending basically always outpaces income, the rest gets made up via debt, largely by selling treasury bonds. Yet Congress sets an needless artificial cap on this. And I mentioned "backdoor appropriations". Occasionally congress accidentally writes a law in a way such that it mandates that the federal government pay something in certain situations. If they do so, then the government must spend that money, appropriated or not, as to not pay would violate the law. Plus congress has created some really complex rules about how much the government can spend that makes their jobs much harder. Much of this is in the name of nominally "balancing the budget", despite the fact that expenditures always outpace income, so obviously the various loopholes in those rules are being constantly exploited. Congress could drastically simplify the whole thing by getting rid of the numeric part of the authorization concept, getting rid of budget resolutions, getting rid of debt ceiling, and getting rid of a bunch of dumb rules that add needless complications. But they don't, so we have this complicated mess instead.
- landemva 4y ago
  > "The Budget" as proposed by the President every year In USA, a member of House of Representatives introduces, or proposes, a spending bill. If both parts of Congress - House and Senate - vote for the bill, it then goes to President for signature into law. https://history.house.gov/institution/origins-development/power-of-the-purse https://history.house.gov/institution/origins-development/po... “All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.” — U.S. Constitution, Article I, section 7, clause 1
  - tcmart14 4y ago
    Usually the President does propose a budget. I believe the proposal is more of a "suggestion" from the President that congress can take into consideration when doing the actual budgeting bills. So the person you responded to is correct. Presidents do generally propose a budget, but it should not be confused with the actual budget that goes into effect. https://www.cbo.gov/topics/budget/presidents-budget https://www.cbo.gov/topics/budget/presidents-budget https://www.senate.gov/reference/reference_index_subjects/Budget_vrd.htm https://www.senate.gov/reference/reference_index_subjects/Bu... "The president submits a budget to Congress by the first Monday in February every year. The budget contains estimates of federal government income and spending for the upcoming fiscal year and also recommends funding levels for the federal government. Congress then must pass appropriations bills based on the president's recommendations and Congressional priorities. If Congress does not pass all appropriations measures by the start of the fiscal year (October 1), it has to enact a continuing resolution to keep the government running."
    - landemva 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - DebtDeflation 4y ago
        The Budget and Accounting Act of 1921 requires the President to submit a budget request to Congress and defines how the overall budgeting process works.
shostack 4y ago
Increasingly it feels like it has become a tool for one party to hold the other (and the country's debt rating) hostage to get what they want. I can only recall this being done by the GOP though if people have evidence of the Democrats doing it please share.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
naveen99 4y ago
actual revenue and actual expenditures will be different than what is in the budget. Also the value of debt changes with market changes in interest rates.

joshstrange 4y ago

CGP Grey has a pretty good (and short) video on this that I've enjoyed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIbkoop4AYE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIbkoop4AYE

jsmith45 4y ago

Yeah. The whole system is crazy. "The Budget" as proposed by the President every year (at a cost of millions) is often ignored pretty much entirely. Congress only sometimes passes their own budget (technically called a budget resolution), since that resolution only impacts certain procedures, and is not technically required. Instead what matters are authorizations and appropriations (and backdoor appropriations). Authorizations are occasionally passed, and set a cap on how much the government can spend on any area. Appropriations are passed yearly and tell the government how much they to spend in each area, which cannot be greater than the authorized amount. If something is authorized but congress forgets to appropriate money for it, it is usually still spent in practice either from general appropriations of the organization, or if not applicable, by pretending there was an appropriation of the correct amount. Similarly, if something is appropriated but congress never authorized it, the money will still be spent. Appropriations are generally viewed as required spending. The executive cannot just choose to only spend half the amount appropriated for building tanks (that the Army does not want anyway!). Thus congress largely controls both much gets spent. They also largely control the amount of income the government makes, by controlling taxes. As spending basically always outpaces income, the rest gets made up via debt, largely by selling treasury bonds. Yet Congress sets an needless artificial cap on this. And I mentioned "backdoor appropriations". Occasionally congress accidentally writes a law in a way such that it mandates that the federal government pay something in certain situations. If they do so, then the government must spend that money, appropriated or not, as to not pay would violate the law. Plus congress has created some really complex rules about how much the government can spend that makes their jobs much harder. Much of this is in the name of nominally "balancing the budget", despite the fact that expenditures always outpace income, so obviously the various loopholes in those rules are being constantly exploited. Congress could drastically simplify the whole thing by getting rid of the numeric part of the authorization concept, getting rid of budget resolutions, getting rid of debt ceiling, and getting rid of a bunch of dumb rules that add needless complications. But they don't, so we have this complicated mess instead.

landemva 4y ago
> "The Budget" as proposed by the President every year In USA, a member of House of Representatives introduces, or proposes, a spending bill. If both parts of Congress - House and Senate - vote for the bill, it then goes to President for signature into law. https://history.house.gov/institution/origins-development/power-of-the-purse https://history.house.gov/institution/origins-development/po... “All Bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with amendments as on other Bills.” — U.S. Constitution, Article I, section 7, clause 1
- tcmart14 4y ago
  Usually the President does propose a budget. I believe the proposal is more of a "suggestion" from the President that congress can take into consideration when doing the actual budgeting bills. So the person you responded to is correct. Presidents do generally propose a budget, but it should not be confused with the actual budget that goes into effect. https://www.cbo.gov/topics/budget/presidents-budget https://www.cbo.gov/topics/budget/presidents-budget https://www.senate.gov/reference/reference_index_subjects/Budget_vrd.htm https://www.senate.gov/reference/reference_index_subjects/Bu... "The president submits a budget to Congress by the first Monday in February every year. The budget contains estimates of federal government income and spending for the upcoming fiscal year and also recommends funding levels for the federal government. Congress then must pass appropriations bills based on the president's recommendations and Congressional priorities. If Congress does not pass all appropriations measures by the start of the fiscal year (October 1), it has to enact a continuing resolution to keep the government running."
  - landemva 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - DebtDeflation 4y ago
      The Budget and Accounting Act of 1921 requires the President to submit a budget request to Congress and defines how the overall budgeting process works.

shostack 4y ago

Increasingly it feels like it has become a tool for one party to hold the other (and the country's debt rating) hostage to get what they want. I can only recall this being done by the GOP though if people have evidence of the Democrats doing it please share.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

naveen99 4y ago

actual revenue and actual expenditures will be different than what is in the budget. Also the value of debt changes with market changes in interest rates.