3 ms·

> But the standard row-stagger is asymmetrical; the way a hand types with the left hand is not mirrored by the right hand. How is it asymmetrical? Unless you c

by 323 4y ago

> But the standard row-stagger is asymmetrical; the way a hand types with the left hand is not mirrored by the right hand. How is it asymmetrical? Unless you consider the right hand typing on the numpad/cursor keys.

the_gastropod 4y ago
On a QWERTY keyboard, think about the letters "I" and "E", which the middle fingers on your right and left hands respectively would hit. Both require your middle finger to reach up and slightly left. It's not a mirrored movement—both skew left. The stagger breaks symmetry of any non-home row finger movements.
- 323 4y ago
  I think I see it, it seems to me that my finger naturally wants to hit in between "E" and "R", but it hits exactly on top of "I". So ortho fixes this, but could it then introduce problems for other pairs? It seems hard to believe that there is a layout which is 100% better for all combinations. Regarding symmetry, our hands are already asymmetrical due to handiness (left-handed, right-handed), and the brain naturally adapts, and there is also the risk of Hawthorne effect if you A/B test ortho/staggered. Some real studies on layouts would really be useful.
  - gigaflop 4y ago
    Ortholinear can be interpreted as 0 stagger, but still takes time to adjust to. However, when I was using ortho at work and ANSI at home, it didn't take much effort for me to alternate. Ortho layouts are also most often used on compact boards, and the Preonic (5x12 grid, '50%' form factor) is probably the most 'plug and use' friendly ortho I've come across.
rgoulter 4y ago
Consider the index-finger columns: On the LHS, the index-finger RFV. The finger rests on the homing key F, with R to the left. On the RHS, the index-finger column is UJM. The finger rests on the homing key F, with U also to the left of F. I'd consider (say) a Katana keyboard to have a symmetrical row-stagger.
gigaflop 4y ago
Standard keyboards use a mix of 0.25u and 0.5u stagger, depending on the row. The Zlant is a uniform-stagger board I got once as a fun project, but you'll see the stagger difference right away: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/zlant/readme.md https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/zl...

by 323 4y ago

the_gastropod 4y ago

On a QWERTY keyboard, think about the letters "I" and "E", which the middle fingers on your right and left hands respectively would hit. Both require your middle finger to reach up and slightly left. It's not a mirrored movement—both skew left. The stagger breaks symmetry of any non-home row finger movements.

323 4y ago
I think I see it, it seems to me that my finger naturally wants to hit in between "E" and "R", but it hits exactly on top of "I". So ortho fixes this, but could it then introduce problems for other pairs? It seems hard to believe that there is a layout which is 100% better for all combinations. Regarding symmetry, our hands are already asymmetrical due to handiness (left-handed, right-handed), and the brain naturally adapts, and there is also the risk of Hawthorne effect if you A/B test ortho/staggered. Some real studies on layouts would really be useful.
- gigaflop 4y ago
  Ortholinear can be interpreted as 0 stagger, but still takes time to adjust to. However, when I was using ortho at work and ANSI at home, it didn't take much effort for me to alternate. Ortho layouts are also most often used on compact boards, and the Preonic (5x12 grid, '50%' form factor) is probably the most 'plug and use' friendly ortho I've come across.

rgoulter 4y ago

Consider the index-finger columns: On the LHS, the index-finger RFV. The finger rests on the homing key F, with R to the left. On the RHS, the index-finger column is UJM. The finger rests on the homing key F, with U also to the left of F. I'd consider (say) a Katana keyboard to have a symmetrical row-stagger.

gigaflop 4y ago

Standard keyboards use a mix of 0.25u and 0.5u stagger, depending on the row. The Zlant is a uniform-stagger board I got once as a fun project, but you'll see the stagger difference right away: https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/zlant/readme.md https://github.com/qmk/qmk_firmware/blob/master/keyboards/zl...