4 ms·

Apache doesn't present them as dead and gone, that's insane. It's the name of a historical and continuing culture, and nobody should own a name in such a way.

eesmith 4y ago
One very clear thing the ASF could do would be to make clear how its own position on the topic has changed over time. The 1997 FAQ at https://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html https://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache... doesn't mention the people, and says the name comes from "a patchy server". It took years for this to be changed. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server#Name tracks the "patchy server" back to the 1995 documentation. More discussion on HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5536134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5536134 .) Yet the current ASF position is that name was rumor, that "rumor became lore, and lore became legend", without mentioning their own role in that propagating that legend for years. While the evidence we have that the server and thence ASF was first named after the Apache peoples first is from oral statements made years later, with no paper trail. In "Trillions and Trillions Served" we see how the name comes from a romantic interpretation from watching a documentary. You can see even then that Brian Behlendorf was having to make clear why he didn't consider this cultural appropriation. https://youtu.be/JUt2nb0mgwg?t=249 https://youtu.be/JUt2nb0mgwg?t=249 . As I recall, there was some controversy about the name at the time, with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5536134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5536134 quoting Fielding: > Apache was named after the Apache tribes -- "a patchy" server was an afterthought. We've generally avoided any discussion of the topic because involvement of a native american "activist" will only result in trouble for us. Those people are not Apache -- they don't even have a clue. The various tribes that are called Apache (by their enemies) have more specific names for themselves. Thus, we don't have any complaints from the Apache people (only from white folks who think they know better). By 2004, that connection no longer exists in the ASF FAQ: https://web.archive.org/web/20040202103926/http://apache.org/foundation/faq.html https://web.archive.org/web/20040202103926/http://apache.org... . By 2008 the ASF FAQ says the name comes from the peoples, not "a patchy server", at https://web.archive.org/web/20080202033147/http://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html https://web.archive.org/web/20080202033147/http://www.apache... , but you can see the author of that entry doesn't know much about the Apache peoples: > The name 'Apache' was chosen from respect for the Native American Indian tribe of Apache, well-known for their superior skills in warfare strategy and their inexhaustible endurance. There is no "the ... tribe of Apache." As this complaint letter points out, "There are currently 8 federally recognized tribes that carry on the Apache name", and the above quote shows Fielding knew that in 2003. Further, the current FAQ says nothing about warfare strategy or inexhaustible endurance but now says: > The name “Apache” was chosen out of reverence and appreciation for the people and tribes who refer to themselves as “Apache”. The lack of details about the clear historical changes makes it easy for an outsider to claim the ASF is deliberately spinning things to make themselves look good.

eesmith 4y ago

One very clear thing the ASF could do would be to make clear how its own position on the topic has changed over time. The 1997 FAQ at https://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache.org/docs/misc/FAQ.html https://web.archive.org/web/19970106233141/http://www.apache... doesn't mention the people, and says the name comes from "a patchy server". It took years for this to be changed. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server#Name https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_HTTP_Server#Name tracks the "patchy server" back to the 1995 documentation. More discussion on HN at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5536134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5536134 .) Yet the current ASF position is that name was rumor, that "rumor became lore, and lore became legend", without mentioning their own role in that propagating that legend for years. While the evidence we have that the server and thence ASF was first named after the Apache peoples first is from oral statements made years later, with no paper trail. In "Trillions and Trillions Served" we see how the name comes from a romantic interpretation from watching a documentary. You can see even then that Brian Behlendorf was having to make clear why he didn't consider this cultural appropriation. https://youtu.be/JUt2nb0mgwg?t=249 https://youtu.be/JUt2nb0mgwg?t=249 . As I recall, there was some controversy about the name at the time, with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5536134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5536134 quoting Fielding: > Apache was named after the Apache tribes -- "a patchy" server was an afterthought. We've generally avoided any discussion of the topic because involvement of a native american "activist" will only result in trouble for us. Those people are not Apache -- they don't even have a clue. The various tribes that are called Apache (by their enemies) have more specific names for themselves. Thus, we don't have any complaints from the Apache people (only from white folks who think they know better). By 2004, that connection no longer exists in the ASF FAQ: https://web.archive.org/web/20040202103926/http://apache.org/foundation/faq.html https://web.archive.org/web/20040202103926/http://apache.org... . By 2008 the ASF FAQ says the name comes from the peoples, not "a patchy server", at https://web.archive.org/web/20080202033147/http://www.apache.org/foundation/faq.html https://web.archive.org/web/20080202033147/http://www.apache... , but you can see the author of that entry doesn't know much about the Apache peoples: > The name 'Apache' was chosen from respect for the Native American Indian tribe of Apache, well-known for their superior skills in warfare strategy and their inexhaustible endurance. There is no "the ... tribe of Apache." As this complaint letter points out, "There are currently 8 federally recognized tribes that carry on the Apache name", and the above quote shows Fielding knew that in 2003. Further, the current FAQ says nothing about warfare strategy or inexhaustible endurance but now says: > The name “Apache” was chosen out of reverence and appreciation for the people and tribes who refer to themselves as “Apache”. The lack of details about the clear historical changes makes it easy for an outsider to claim the ASF is deliberately spinning things to make themselves look good.