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> This doesn't seem to lead to good decisions being made, but when you have referendums that is top down direct democracy it seems to be, now a days, a process

> This doesn't seem to lead to good decisions being made, but when you have referendums that is top down direct democracy it seems to be, now a days, a process that can be very easily manipulated to spread misinformation. This is a somewhat false assumption. Yes people spread misinformation. But here is the thing, the opposition also spreads misinformation. And lots of people also spread good information, or what they consider good information. So in reality its anything but 'easy' to manipulate voting to the outcome you want. Switzerland has been the most direct democracy for 200 years and so far we have no collapsed because of the evil demon of misinformation. There are many easy ways prevent misinformation from being all that effective. In Switzerland, when you get a popular vote, it comes with a little bit of information from the state and each party can basically write their position on the paper. If you are not interested in the issue or becoming an expert, you can simply trust in the party you are a member of or partial to and vote as they do. People also need to be somewhat used to direct democracy and have a real stake, voting on issues need to be common thing. If you have govenrment that is 99% a representative democracy and then once every so often something actually goes before the population you are gone get strange outcomes. You also need to control when and how things even get to point where people can vote on things and what their options are. Should you only vote for 2 options or should a range of options be presented.

jerojero 4y ago
Yes, I think Switzerland does a very good job with their referendums. But Switzerland has a history of democratic and political participation that most countries do not have. Switzerland's politics is extremely complex and it has many, many moving parts. To begin with, it's very decentralized with every canton having their own constitution and their own way of doing things; there is a canton that still passes laws by people raising their hands in the town plaza. What you say is very important, in Switzerland the government actually makes a very important effort in being sort of the arbiter of truth and that's definitely something that governments that have undergone the referendums I mentioned didn't really do very well at all. I'm really not saying referendums are bad, I think they can be bad if they're not done carefully and they're really not done carefully in most cases and so I believe this kind of democracy to be much more fragile than one that is sortition based. Though obviously, I think a full system incorporates many elements and referendums are a part of it; in Ireland for example, when they've had big referendums (such as abortion and gay marriage which were very divisive issues) they used mini publics to complement the range of information that was offered, they held an sortition based representative assembly that discussed the issue thoroughly and then gave an official resolution on the matter. And research actually indicates that most people that voted in the referendum were aware of the assembly and its conclusion. That's very good. I'm very much for referendums if they're done carefully and with proper support from the state. But I think sortition is a much cleaner way to solve most problems with modern politics, though I am quite the optimistic person! Anyway given that you're in Switzerland you should see what they've proposed for the canton of Vaud with regards to these matters.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  > But Switzerland has a history of democratic and political participation that most countries do not have. Can't have a tradition without starting. > o begin with, it's very decentralized with every canton having their own constitution and their own way of doing things Growing up in Switzerland is quite funny where you have people from like 30min away, who literally have a totally different school system. Its kind of like the American system but in some ways cantons can do even more then states can in the US. The Swiss system being basically adopted from the US one but on a smaller scale. So you have cantons of 200k people that have the same power-level as California. > sortition That something I have not really considered much, I should study that some more. > Anyway given that you're in Switzerland you should see what they've proposed for the canton of Vaud with regards to these matters. Ill have to look into that. I know there is a secessionist movement where villages are moving from Bern (Bern was the war monger expansionist part of the Old Confederacy) to Vaud but that might be unrelated.

jerojero 4y ago

Yes, I think Switzerland does a very good job with their referendums. But Switzerland has a history of democratic and political participation that most countries do not have. Switzerland's politics is extremely complex and it has many, many moving parts. To begin with, it's very decentralized with every canton having their own constitution and their own way of doing things; there is a canton that still passes laws by people raising their hands in the town plaza. What you say is very important, in Switzerland the government actually makes a very important effort in being sort of the arbiter of truth and that's definitely something that governments that have undergone the referendums I mentioned didn't really do very well at all. I'm really not saying referendums are bad, I think they can be bad if they're not done carefully and they're really not done carefully in most cases and so I believe this kind of democracy to be much more fragile than one that is sortition based. Though obviously, I think a full system incorporates many elements and referendums are a part of it; in Ireland for example, when they've had big referendums (such as abortion and gay marriage which were very divisive issues) they used mini publics to complement the range of information that was offered, they held an sortition based representative assembly that discussed the issue thoroughly and then gave an official resolution on the matter. And research actually indicates that most people that voted in the referendum were aware of the assembly and its conclusion. That's very good. I'm very much for referendums if they're done carefully and with proper support from the state. But I think sortition is a much cleaner way to solve most problems with modern politics, though I am quite the optimistic person! Anyway given that you're in Switzerland you should see what they've proposed for the canton of Vaud with regards to these matters.

panick21_ 4y ago
> But Switzerland has a history of democratic and political participation that most countries do not have. Can't have a tradition without starting. > o begin with, it's very decentralized with every canton having their own constitution and their own way of doing things Growing up in Switzerland is quite funny where you have people from like 30min away, who literally have a totally different school system. Its kind of like the American system but in some ways cantons can do even more then states can in the US. The Swiss system being basically adopted from the US one but on a smaller scale. So you have cantons of 200k people that have the same power-level as California. > sortition That something I have not really considered much, I should study that some more. > Anyway given that you're in Switzerland you should see what they've proposed for the canton of Vaud with regards to these matters. Ill have to look into that. I know there is a secessionist movement where villages are moving from Bern (Bern was the war monger expansionist part of the Old Confederacy) to Vaud but that might be unrelated.