3 ms·

Still complex for me, even after reading the author's tutorial and suggestions. Between hjkl, w, l, d, dd, esc, :command, and more modes I feel like I'll never

by tomrod 4y ago

Still complex for me, even after reading the author's tutorial and suggestions. Between hjkl, w, l, d, dd, esc, :command, and more modes I feel like I'll never grok vim. After how many years do I throw in the towel and just stick with VS Code? Been at it since 2008 in some form or another :(

JenrHywy 4y ago
I use vim in VS Code - best of both worlds :)
tmtvl 4y ago
I tried from 2013 to 2018, even going so far as to change zsh to using vim bindings and then I threw in the towel and switched to Emacs. While Elisp isn't the nicest Lisp around it's a lot nicer than vimscript, lua, or javascript.
- hyperhopper 4y ago
  Check out spacemacs or doom emacs! Vim has the best interface, but it's built on a pretty awful program. Emacs is a pretty awful interface built on a pretty great program. Combine the two!
makeitdouble 4y ago
Using both when it makes sense should be the best ? I've seen many coworkers(me included) switch from vim to IDEs, but still use it here and there. I think vim alone makes less sense in our current environments where we're constantly interfacing with many different systems: In my case I need SCM status, a command prompt at any time, docker container status and commands, quick local to remote file transfer, local and remote linting (don't use the same rules) and image previewing. I could probably make a vim + terminal setup that brings me 99% there, but it just doesn't make sense as a time investment TBH. And buttons to click are nice, really.
memorable 4y ago
I have been using Vim since almost day 1 of learning how to code and I honestly have never used 90% of Vim's features. For hjkl I just used arrow keys since they are nicer and I dont find much difference between them. For modes I only learned about Normal, Insert and Visual. No more than that. You could say my Vim editing is extremely ineffective, but it is effective enough for me.
- agileAlligator 4y ago
  > For hjkl I just used arrow keys since they are nicer and I dont find much difference between them. The point of hjkl is to keep your fingers in the home row of your keyboard. This is generally accepted to be good typing practice as it improves speed.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
    >> The point of hjkl is to keep your fingers in the home row of your keyboard. This is generally accepted to be good typing practice as it improves speed. You might get some benefit to speed if you keep your hands on the home row, or you might not. This is mostly something people have been repeating as gospel, but I'm not aware of anyone testing it. Intuitively, using the arrow keys to move the cursor without inserting a character should be faster. Assuming one is moving around the text while editing, it takes at least three keypresses to use hjkl to move the cursor without inserting a character: one to switch to command mode, one to move the cursor, and one to switch back to insert mode. That's because hjkl in insert mode simply insert their respective letters. By contrast, using the arrow keys to move the cursor without inserting a character needs one keypress: to press an arrow key. Even if you count moving your hand to the arrow keys and back as two distinct "operations", and each keypress as a single operation, it takes at least three operations to use the arrow keys (i.e. as many as using hjkl): one to move a hand to the arrow keys, one to press a key, and one to move the hand back. Assuming that each operation takes constant time, that means that, at best, there is no advantage over keeping your hands at the home row and moving the cursor with hjkl, than using the arrow keys. So that idea, that it's faster to keep one's hands in the home row, must be a superstition. Incidentally, I've been using vim continuously since 2011. These days at work I use a Spanish QWERTY keyboard, but with an English Euro layout. I got the Spanish keyboard by mistake and it was simpler to keep using it with the layout I know, and benefit from more than a decade of muscle memory, than to try and learn the new key positions (and combinations). This is another reason why I am skeptical of the claim about the home row: muscle memory is faster than any spatial optimisation you may think of, or, rather, if you've already learned to move your hands one way and can do it fast, changing to a new way will slow you down, first. And then we're talking about long-term gains of maybe a few milliseconds in the long term in this case. That sounds pointless.
the_gastropod 4y ago
I think it’s common to get overwhelmed with all of vims features. For me, focusing on one thing at a time helped. For example, spend a day where instead of repeatedly doing: A,<esc>j to add commas to the end of lines, learn to do it in visual block mode. It’ll be annoying and fiddly the first 5 times. But it quickly becomes muscle memory. That said, if you’ve been trying vim seriously for ~15 years, maybe it just isn’t your thing.
- tomrod 4y ago
  > if you’ve been trying vim seriously for ~15 years To clarify and to be fair to vim, it's a few days to a little over a week of effort every 8 months to two years or so. I'll get the bug to ascend in my coding speed after reading an article like this one, check to see if I still have .vimrc from the last time I tried to configure it for things like syntax highlighting, spaces instead of tabs, etc., then give it a roll.
Aperocky 4y ago
I was like that, then for 2 months I decided I would use vim to do everything and use absolutely nothing else to edit text, this is when I had joined a new company and ramping up. About 5 weeks in I ceased trying to make Java work with vim and have been using intellij (with vim binding) for Java and Kotlin. But kept using vim for everything else, which is roughly 50% of work load and stretches several different language and config formats. Have been using vim ever since, the cliff is the hardest part, but it was totally worth it.
b0afc375b5 4y ago
I remember for the first two weeks (maybe a month? it was so long ago) learning vim was painful as hell. I had to fight the urge to just stick with non-vim mode typing like in default vscode. Despite that I willed myself to continue using vim because of the plethora of praise it had, and the promised eternal benefits I will be blessed with, so say the evangelists. After that it was a breath of fresh air to be able to type at the speed of thought. I would never dream of going back to non-modal editing again. Now I'm using evil/emacs and couldn't be happier. There's another modal editing that's gaining traction called meow, and maybe other variants that I want to learn. But for now I'll stick with evil/vim-mode.
jatins 4y ago
I found this extremely useful to learn Vim https://github.com/iggredible/Learn-Vim https://github.com/iggredible/Learn-Vim I first tried the wrong way to learn Vim: memorizing keybindings. That's not helpful at all. Write way to learn Vim: understanding Vim "grammar" as this repo teaches.

by tomrod 4y ago

JenrHywy 4y ago

I use vim in VS Code - best of both worlds :)

tmtvl 4y ago

I tried from 2013 to 2018, even going so far as to change zsh to using vim bindings and then I threw in the towel and switched to Emacs. While Elisp isn't the nicest Lisp around it's a lot nicer than vimscript, lua, or javascript.

hyperhopper 4y ago
Check out spacemacs or doom emacs! Vim has the best interface, but it's built on a pretty awful program. Emacs is a pretty awful interface built on a pretty great program. Combine the two!

makeitdouble 4y ago

Using both when it makes sense should be the best ? I've seen many coworkers(me included) switch from vim to IDEs, but still use it here and there. I think vim alone makes less sense in our current environments where we're constantly interfacing with many different systems: In my case I need SCM status, a command prompt at any time, docker container status and commands, quick local to remote file transfer, local and remote linting (don't use the same rules) and image previewing. I could probably make a vim + terminal setup that brings me 99% there, but it just doesn't make sense as a time investment TBH. And buttons to click are nice, really.

memorable 4y ago

I have been using Vim since almost day 1 of learning how to code and I honestly have never used 90% of Vim's features. For hjkl I just used arrow keys since they are nicer and I dont find much difference between them. For modes I only learned about Normal, Insert and Visual. No more than that. You could say my Vim editing is extremely ineffective, but it is effective enough for me.

agileAlligator 4y ago
> For hjkl I just used arrow keys since they are nicer and I dont find much difference between them. The point of hjkl is to keep your fingers in the home row of your keyboard. This is generally accepted to be good typing practice as it improves speed.
- YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
  >> The point of hjkl is to keep your fingers in the home row of your keyboard. This is generally accepted to be good typing practice as it improves speed. You might get some benefit to speed if you keep your hands on the home row, or you might not. This is mostly something people have been repeating as gospel, but I'm not aware of anyone testing it. Intuitively, using the arrow keys to move the cursor without inserting a character should be faster. Assuming one is moving around the text while editing, it takes at least three keypresses to use hjkl to move the cursor without inserting a character: one to switch to command mode, one to move the cursor, and one to switch back to insert mode. That's because hjkl in insert mode simply insert their respective letters. By contrast, using the arrow keys to move the cursor without inserting a character needs one keypress: to press an arrow key. Even if you count moving your hand to the arrow keys and back as two distinct "operations", and each keypress as a single operation, it takes at least three operations to use the arrow keys (i.e. as many as using hjkl): one to move a hand to the arrow keys, one to press a key, and one to move the hand back. Assuming that each operation takes constant time, that means that, at best, there is no advantage over keeping your hands at the home row and moving the cursor with hjkl, than using the arrow keys. So that idea, that it's faster to keep one's hands in the home row, must be a superstition. Incidentally, I've been using vim continuously since 2011. These days at work I use a Spanish QWERTY keyboard, but with an English Euro layout. I got the Spanish keyboard by mistake and it was simpler to keep using it with the layout I know, and benefit from more than a decade of muscle memory, than to try and learn the new key positions (and combinations). This is another reason why I am skeptical of the claim about the home row: muscle memory is faster than any spatial optimisation you may think of, or, rather, if you've already learned to move your hands one way and can do it fast, changing to a new way will slow you down, first. And then we're talking about long-term gains of maybe a few milliseconds in the long term in this case. That sounds pointless.

the_gastropod 4y ago

I think it’s common to get overwhelmed with all of vims features. For me, focusing on one thing at a time helped. For example, spend a day where instead of repeatedly doing: A,<esc>j to add commas to the end of lines, learn to do it in visual block mode. It’ll be annoying and fiddly the first 5 times. But it quickly becomes muscle memory. That said, if you’ve been trying vim seriously for ~15 years, maybe it just isn’t your thing.

tomrod 4y ago
> if you’ve been trying vim seriously for ~15 years To clarify and to be fair to vim, it's a few days to a little over a week of effort every 8 months to two years or so. I'll get the bug to ascend in my coding speed after reading an article like this one, check to see if I still have .vimrc from the last time I tried to configure it for things like syntax highlighting, spaces instead of tabs, etc., then give it a roll.

Aperocky 4y ago

I was like that, then for 2 months I decided I would use vim to do everything and use absolutely nothing else to edit text, this is when I had joined a new company and ramping up. About 5 weeks in I ceased trying to make Java work with vim and have been using intellij (with vim binding) for Java and Kotlin. But kept using vim for everything else, which is roughly 50% of work load and stretches several different language and config formats. Have been using vim ever since, the cliff is the hardest part, but it was totally worth it.

b0afc375b5 4y ago

I remember for the first two weeks (maybe a month? it was so long ago) learning vim was painful as hell. I had to fight the urge to just stick with non-vim mode typing like in default vscode. Despite that I willed myself to continue using vim because of the plethora of praise it had, and the promised eternal benefits I will be blessed with, so say the evangelists. After that it was a breath of fresh air to be able to type at the speed of thought. I would never dream of going back to non-modal editing again. Now I'm using evil/emacs and couldn't be happier. There's another modal editing that's gaining traction called meow, and maybe other variants that I want to learn. But for now I'll stick with evil/vim-mode.

jatins 4y ago

I found this extremely useful to learn Vim https://github.com/iggredible/Learn-Vim https://github.com/iggredible/Learn-Vim I first tried the wrong way to learn Vim: memorizing keybindings. That's not helpful at all. Write way to learn Vim: understanding Vim "grammar" as this repo teaches.