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Ask HN: Is it legal for an employer to post as you on Slack?

37 points by javajosh 4y ago

1: I was unceremoniously let go today. 2: I posted a farewell in Slack, and my coworkers replied sympathetically. 3: My laptop was remotely logged out. I also use slack from my phone, and 4: saw that someone posted as me saying "Thanks", a ghost post. Using my phone I 5: commented on the ghost post. Then 6: a few minutes later my slack login was invalidated. My question is: is it legal for someone to post on Slack as me? Note: I'm in the US, working as a contractor (W-2 to the contractor, who I assume has something like a 1099 with the primary employer). The employer is in Madison, Wisconsin. I am in Florida. As for the contract, I think it's safe to assume it says "We can do anything we want, and you can do nothing." Note: hire me. javajosh at the gmail.

pluc 4y ago
The corporate account and everything you do under it belongs to them, not to you. It's probably legal but certainly unethical.
- notyourwork 4y ago
  Unethical, I’m not sure I find it all that nefarious. Strange yes, unethical, eh.
  - asveikau 4y ago
    A lot of people exchange small personal, not strictly work related messages with departing employees, to wish them luck or maybe keep in touch. I think it's unethical for the employer to read that. And it's even more unethical for an employer to reply as you, and make that person think you got the message and/or appreciated it. For example, if the departing employee later interacts with former coworkers in a social context (employer totally out of the picture), someone could falsely get the impression that somebody replied to a personal message, when they actually did not read it.. That could theoretically have social consequences that are none of the employer's business. Maybe that coworker the IT guy replied "thanks" to was actually stalking them. Maybe there was some kind of affair? Those are probably atypical, but my point is you don't know what weird consequence even a small "thanks" could have. That is why, IMO, the most ethical thing an employer can do here is to not even look at the messages, let alone reply.
bhaney 4y ago
I can't imagine anyone would be able to answer this definitively without knowing the country you're in, the state you're in if you're in the US, and a copy of your employment contract.
- javajosh 4y ago
  I'm in the US, working as a contractor (W-2 to the contractor, who I assume has something like a 1099 with the primary employer). The employer is in Madison, Wisconsin. I am in Florida. As for the contract, I think it's safe to assume it says "We can do anything we want, and you can do nothing."
  - isk517 4y ago
    I believe that is all covered under Catch 22.
uberman 4y ago
Is it their slack account or your personal account. Just like email, if it is theirs it is theirs.
- it_citizen 4y ago
  If I owned a newspaper, I don't think I could write an article under the name of a journalist I just fired.
  - mcbuilder 4y ago
    This is "Thanks" by some poor ops engineer trying to do her job. You'd have her fired if the company lost a lawsuit all to prove some bullshit "ideal". The two things are completely different, for one a newspaper has an Editorial Board, I could go on...
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sithadmin 4y ago
In the United States? May depend on your location, but as far as I’m aware based on the (large, tech heavy) states where I’ve been in the unfortunate position of executing firings and layoffs, probably not illegal. It’s not uncommon for off-boarding procedures to include taking over the terminated employee account to set up email and chat auto responses, which aren’t materially different than “thanks”.
- deleted 4y ago
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mainedotpy 4y ago
Understand that emotions may be running high, but they said "Thanks". It was a little shady to post as you, but it did no harm.
jterrys 4y ago
Seems like in this case it was pretty innocuous if all they said was "Thanks"
- maxerickson 4y ago
  The ethics around impersonating someone are pretty much absolute. It's not ethical. The degree of harm doesn't really factor into that. They can likely do whatever they want with the account of course.
  - jterrys 4y ago
    I mean sure, you're absolutely right, but a "thanks" is not exactly grounds for a pursuit in anything more serious. Yeah it kinda sucks and feels weird but that's about all you can say.
deleted 4y ago
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tobyjsullivan 4y ago
Is there any chance someone was cleaning up your laptop/backing up IP and simply forgot it would be signed in as you and not them? A simple "thanks" on a public thread is ambiguous enough that it's not obvious which comment they'd be replying to. Posting from your account accidentally would likely be fine, legally. I don't have any idea about the law if it was intentional, though.
- notyourwork 4y ago
  Messages can be deleted. I would imagine if that scenario were true the person would delete the accidental reply, no?
  - tobyjsullivan 4y ago
    Maybe. Has the message been deleted?
gnicholas 4y ago
Is the only thing that was ghost-posted as you "Thanks"? If so, I'd think you'd have very little in the way of damages here. If they had posted something substantive, like "I'm sorry for all the mistakes I made", then you could have a cause of action. In many cases, whether there is a lawsuit worth pursuing depends on both (1) whether a wrong was committed, and (2) whether there are any damages worth recovering based on the wrong. In some cases all you need is (1), for example if there are statutorily-specified damages. But in most cases, the recoverable damages will depend on how much you were actually injured/prejudiced by the wrong committed.
- javajosh 4y ago
  I'm not so interested in damages - I suppose this shows my lack of legal training in the way I asked the question! TBH I find it intensely creepy and BAD that an employer might post as you under any circumstances. It feels like I'm (me, the actual person) is being sock-puppetted. It highlights the extraordinary power employers have in WFH situations, and indeed, in any computer mediated interaction between employees. I've personally never seen this before, and find it quite alarming.
  - sithadmin 4y ago
    My firm has a SaaS provider that lets our marketing folks take over LinkedIn and other social media accounts and make posts using employee identities. It’s strictly opt-in but encouraged. I opt out.
    - javajosh 4y ago
      Holy shit. Who's the SaaS that does this and doesn't this run afoul of LinkIn's TOS???
      - codegeek 4y ago
        This is more common than you think. I have been pitched by these "lead gen" companies who will hire cheap contractors to use your founder/ceo account to send prospects messages as you to "scale lead gen". I declined. I just can't think of someone impersonating as me even to help with sales. I do know that those people have clients and are reasonably successful.
_8j50 4y ago
Your work account and resources are not yours. The company can use it's slack account which you were given access to previously to post anything. That said, whether they pretended to be you or not, if they said anything slanderous, harmful or materially damaging or if you can at least reasonably claim their posts were of that nature then you can absolutley sue the crap out of them.
- javajosh 4y ago
  Tell me, how would I even find out? If you're locked out of your account, how would you know who's posting as you, in general? Personally, I think there needs to be a hard limit on speaking as someone else. The company can say whatever they want, however they want. But they CANNOT speak as ME! No matter how innocuous it is. It's equivalent to compelling speech with force.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    Telling a lie or pretending to be someone is not a crime or illegal in civil law. You are not complelled because you did not make the speech. How would you have found out? You wouldn't have. Can HN make a post as you or me and hide it from us? Sure thing.
    - javajosh 4y ago
      >Telling a lie or pretending to be someone is not a crime or illegal in civil law. It should be. Times have changed, and now it is possible to impersonate someone "perfectly". This has a negative impact on both the one being impersonated and the people that are being lied to. It is a form of fraud. The requirement to connect this to actual damages is an exercise. An exercise lawyers have convinced a population of scared, ignorant people, demands $300/hr to complete. Let me put it simply: you cannot speak as me, and if you do, you're wrong and should be punished. Now, maybe it's not the law, but it damn well should be. It seems common sense to me. If you cannot imagine the consequences of allowing an employer to impersonate you (especially in the age of AI), then I will say you lack imagination.
ctrwu2843 4y ago
The ops engineer was probably trying to do you a favour / make it so you don't look ignorant and grumpy. Try to assume the best in people and their actions and your life will likely be better for it. The job is over, with very little to be gained dwelling on trivialities.
- javajosh 4y ago
  You assume I'm ignorant and grumpy, though. My response to the ghost was simply to say that last post wasn't me, and I really was thankful to work with a great bunch of people. However, the possibility that an employer will post as you on Slack should be taken very seriously. Perhaps my case isn't much of an error mode (setting aside feelings of creepiness) but consider the possibilities! Try to assume the best in people and their actions and your life will likely be better for it.
  - majortennis 4y ago
    i think he just meant if you didnt reply at all might look like that and since he saw it just put a thanks in to save face for you
  - bradknowles 4y ago
    NB: I am not a lawyer, and nothing that is said here can be construed as to be legal advice. If you're really concerned, you need to speak directly to a lawyer who is admitted and recognized by the appropriate bar association for the jurisdiction in question, etc.... That said, the company owns that Slack instance. They can do whatever they want with it. Now, it might be unethical for someone else to post as another person, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be illegal. Slack does make it difficult for anyone to remove a post made by someone else. That is intentional. But if you can log into their account as them, then I guess they can do whatever they want as the person in question. Disclaimers: IANAL, YMMV, etc....
- devwastaken 4y ago
  If the ops engi is trying to do a favor, that favor would be removing access. Under no circumstances should someone fake being another employee. They shouldn't even have the access to do so. This smells like bad security practices.
pmarreck 4y ago
it's frustrating to lose a job. don't take it personally.
deleted 4y ago
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seneca 4y ago
Posting "thanks" as you is not something to be offended over. It's poor form socially, and that's about it. You're upset that you got fired, and you're over reacting to something that isn't a big deal. I'd encourage you to delete this, since it contains an alias you apparently also use as your email and can therefore be easily linked to you. You don't want this to be something prospective future employers see.
- javajosh 4y ago
  I think that's a reasonable take, TBH. But for a moment consider the missed opportunity here. I'm about to be persona non grata, and its my final farewell. Am I going to limit myself to "Thanks"? No. I want to say something wise and profound, something to lift spirits. Because I'm egotistical enough to think I'm worth a damn, my team likes me, and the company really is going to be worse off without me. In my case, a major refactor went wrong, and I believe that failure is largely my responsibility. Perhaps this means they were right to let me go. But they were wrong to shorten the timeline after promising 2 weeks. Despite my failure I did exert myself and attempt to achieve the goal. We did a good post mortem today - until it was cut short by a remote reset of my laptop. Therefore, I just want two things: 1. Payment through 1/20 as originally promised. 2. Passage of a law prohibiting employers from impersonating employees. Also, see my "primary response" : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34362583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34362583
benatkin 4y ago
I think it's deliberate and it could be quite harmful. Someone who knew your real name and was thinking of messaging you out of work could have thought you'd be lonely or stressed and seen it and figured you were feeling fine, and not bothered to reach out. This could have been the difference between a strong friendship and falling completely out of touch. They shouldn't mess with people like that! The person doing it deliberately (if I'm right) probably didn't think of the harm. If it was accidental they should have deleted it right away. Best of luck, both in finding a new job and maintaining connections/friendships from this job! I have seen you on HN a lot and am surprised to see you let go. Chalk that up to the halo effect and years of corporate culture programming me to think that productive people are seldom let go.
nidangger 4y ago
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lr4444lr 4y ago
Honestly, if it weren't, what would you even do about it? Do you really have the time and resources to pursue it? Did you suffer damages from such?
SpeedilyDamage 4y ago
Something I needed to hear when I left my first company: you lose all battles you were fighting, you lose all investment in the work being done, you lose everything you've built when you leave. Just let it be, it's part of life. This is not important now, it won't be important in a week, and you won't remember this in a year. Look forward.
bfung 4y ago
IANAL Perhaps an unpopular leading question/answer, but who owns that particular Slack account? If the company owns <ex-employee>@<company.com>’s as the login, they own it and it’s not really “you”/“yours” ~
paxys 4y ago
This is shady as hell. A simple "thanks" message might sound innocent enough but you have no idea what else they are saying on your behalf. They have zero reason to pretend to be you in front of coworkers, period. I have no idea why everyone here is defending the company's actions so hard. As for the legal part, I'm not a lawyer but I'm fairly confident in saying that you don't have a case for anything. They haven't caused you any real harm. Just forget about it and move on with your life.
javajosh 4y ago
Now I'm thinking. As someone who's started businesses before and hired people - am I not empathizing enough with the employer? What would I do in this situation? I guess the answer to that is simple: first and foremost, I'd abide by my original agreement to end our contract in 2 weeks and not today. That would have side-stepped all of these concerns. Second, not having done that, not posted as me in Slack, indicating a blase lack of concern for my coworkers as I exited. "Thanks" isn't harmful, but it isn't helpful either. I had an opportunity to leave one last impression, and they squandered it with "Thanks". So, to all those saying there is no material harm: I ask, how much value does a person's last impression of you have? How much value does "Thanks" squander in that moment? I don't think that number is zero.
alphabettsy 4y ago
I’m sorry this happened to you. I think you’re upset and this is where you’re directing your anger. It’s weird, but not a big deal imo. Maybe sleep on it first.