5 ms·

Simply not true but believe what you need to.

dmitriid 4y ago
I literally provided just some of the examples. Those are easily verifiable. Web Transport is shipped by default. What was the input from other browsers? Here's the timeline for HID: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#issuecomment-886271967 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is... Constructible Stylesheets: the spec contained a trivially reproducible race condition, the API was badly specified. Google shipped against any objections and refused to bring it back under the flag. Full discussion here: https://github.com/WICG/construct-stylesheets/issues/45 https://github.com/WICG/construct-stylesheets/issues/45. Shipped in Chrome https://github.com/WICG/construct-stylesheets/issues/45#issuecomment-577781329 https://github.com/WICG/construct-stylesheets/issues/45#issu... (may be hidden on mobile) despite multiple unresolved issues. Two years later Chrome did add a better API that people originally requested, other issues potentially remain. You may believe in benevolent Google working hand in hand with others for the betterment of the web. The reality is radically different. Edit: more about hardware APIs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34356651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34356651 Edit2: As to the number of APIs, Chrome actually tracks how much they ship: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence
- simonw 4y ago
  What do you think of the Chrome origin trial process?
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    It's a good idea, or at least originally it was a good idea. In reality it devolved to, well, see the links I provided. Edit: Note: those three are the ones I remember because I was reading about them at the time, or participating in some form in the discussion. How many are there that just slip through? Well, you can kinda see for yourself (second hand guessing, by proxy etc.): 1. MDN lists various web APIs, including experimental ones: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API Almost every single one that's marked "experimental" is shipped by default in Chrome 2. Mozilla lists its position on various standards. Almost all of those marked as "considered harmful/negative" are shipped by default in Chrome https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ (exceptions are a few deprecated and removed ones like HTML Imports) 3. Chrome currently ships 1100 more APIs more than Firefox: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence (note: a single standard like "File System Access API" may expose dozens of these APIs) Is it because Firefox is lagging, or is it because Chrome just powers through, all consensus be damned?
- encryptluks2 4y ago
  Can you just slow down for a moment and focus on what you said? > We're literally in the discussion about File System API that is: > - not on any standards track As others have pointed out the standard is here: https://fs.spec.whatwg.org/ https://fs.spec.whatwg.org/ > - considered harmful by other browser vendors It is literally being drafted in conjunction by all the major browsers. > - shipped by default in Chrome So what? I for one am thankful that Chromium enables features earlier than other browsers. If you don't want the Chromium implementation then don't use it.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > As others have pointed out the standard is here: As others also pointed out, it's a different standard. File System: Mozilla isn't opposed File System Access API: considered harmful There are parts (of whichever spec) that neither Mozilla nor Safari are opposed to like Private Origin File System. That one ships across all browsers. > So what? Ah yes. So what if a dominant browser ships features without any consensus, against objections, with badly written specs, or with glaring issues. As to "don't use it", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31905404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31905404
    - 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
      wait, there's 2 different...? I don't even know what I can call them if not "standards" and only one has "API" in the name.
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        Where file handling is concerned, there are at least - File System Access API, https://wicg.github.io/file-system-access/ https://wicg.github.io/file-system-access/ - File Handling, https://github.com/WICG/file-handling/blob/master/explainer.md https://github.com/WICG/file-handling/blob/master/explainer.... - Origin Private File System, https://github.com/WICG/file-system-access/blob/main/AccessHandle.md https://github.com/WICG/file-system-access/blob/main/AccessH... There was also Storage Foundation API to which the reaction was "I don't think it's an acceptable outcome for the web platform to have that many ways to work with files" :) https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/481 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/481 This one never saw the light of day.
kevingadd 4y ago
Has been true since the days of Web Audio and is still true. Context: I was a member of both the Firefox and Chrome development teams at different points.

I literally provided just some of the examples. Those are easily verifiable. Web Transport is shipped by default. What was the input from other browsers? Here's the timeline for HID: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#issuecomment-886271967 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is... Constructible Stylesheets: the spec contained a trivially reproducible race condition, the API was badly specified. Google shipped against any objections and refused to bring it back under the flag. Full discussion here: https://github.com/WICG/construct-stylesheets/issues/45 https://github.com/WICG/construct-stylesheets/issues/45. Shipped in Chrome https://github.com/WICG/construct-stylesheets/issues/45#issuecomment-577781329 https://github.com/WICG/construct-stylesheets/issues/45#issu... (may be hidden on mobile) despite multiple unresolved issues. Two years later Chrome did add a better API that people originally requested, other issues potentially remain. You may believe in benevolent Google working hand in hand with others for the betterment of the web. The reality is radically different. Edit: more about hardware APIs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34356651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34356651 Edit2: As to the number of APIs, Chrome actually tracks how much they ship: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence

simonw 4y ago
What do you think of the Chrome origin trial process?
- dmitriid 4y ago
  It's a good idea, or at least originally it was a good idea. In reality it devolved to, well, see the links I provided. Edit: Note: those three are the ones I remember because I was reading about them at the time, or participating in some form in the discussion. How many are there that just slip through? Well, you can kinda see for yourself (second hand guessing, by proxy etc.): 1. MDN lists various web APIs, including experimental ones: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API Almost every single one that's marked "experimental" is shipped by default in Chrome 2. Mozilla lists its position on various standards. Almost all of those marked as "considered harmful/negative" are shipped by default in Chrome https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ (exceptions are a few deprecated and removed ones like HTML Imports) 3. Chrome currently ships 1100 more APIs more than Firefox: https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence https://web-confluence.appspot.com/#!/confluence (note: a single standard like "File System Access API" may expose dozens of these APIs) Is it because Firefox is lagging, or is it because Chrome just powers through, all consensus be damned?
encryptluks2 4y ago
Can you just slow down for a moment and focus on what you said? > We're literally in the discussion about File System API that is: > - not on any standards track As others have pointed out the standard is here: https://fs.spec.whatwg.org/ https://fs.spec.whatwg.org/ > - considered harmful by other browser vendors It is literally being drafted in conjunction by all the major browsers. > - shipped by default in Chrome So what? I for one am thankful that Chromium enables features earlier than other browsers. If you don't want the Chromium implementation then don't use it.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > As others have pointed out the standard is here: As others also pointed out, it's a different standard. File System: Mozilla isn't opposed File System Access API: considered harmful There are parts (of whichever spec) that neither Mozilla nor Safari are opposed to like Private Origin File System. That one ships across all browsers. > So what? Ah yes. So what if a dominant browser ships features without any consensus, against objections, with badly written specs, or with glaring issues. As to "don't use it", https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31905404 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31905404
  - 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
    wait, there's 2 different...? I don't even know what I can call them if not "standards" and only one has "API" in the name.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      Where file handling is concerned, there are at least - File System Access API, https://wicg.github.io/file-system-access/ https://wicg.github.io/file-system-access/ - File Handling, https://github.com/WICG/file-handling/blob/master/explainer.md https://github.com/WICG/file-handling/blob/master/explainer.... - Origin Private File System, https://github.com/WICG/file-system-access/blob/main/AccessHandle.md https://github.com/WICG/file-system-access/blob/main/AccessH... There was also Storage Foundation API to which the reaction was "I don't think it's an acceptable outcome for the web platform to have that many ways to work with files" :) https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/481 https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/481 This one never saw the light of day.

kevingadd 4y ago

Has been true since the days of Web Audio and is still true. Context: I was a member of both the Firefox and Chrome development teams at different points.