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Funny, I really like the macOS approach. I could make a similar list, but with Windows on the "why would you want that" side. Here's what I like about the macOS
by dividedbyzero 4y ago
Funny, I really like the macOS approach. I could make a similar list, but with Windows on the "why would you want that" side. Here's what I like about the macOS approach:
- If an app is open, load times for new windows are instantaneous; I have a M2 and the difference between a new window for an app that's open and launching an app is still pretty noticeable for most apps. It's definitely noticeable on my Windows PC, and it's mildly annoying.
- I don't have to keep track of what's running: A new or main window for a frequently-used app is always just Cmd-Tab, Cmd+N/0/whatever, regardless of whether I already have five windows open or none at all. Allows me to keep the dock hidden too since I typically don't need to see what's running and what isn't.
- Cmd+Tab is more like a context-sensitive window launcher than a list of windows for me, one that I can navigate quickly by keyboard; select an app, hit h for hide, q for quit, up-arrow to see all its windows. If I might need an app, like CaptureOne, it's in the Dock; if I'm actually likely to need it, like Mail, it'll be in Cmd+Tab (possibly autostarted), add/remove from/to the latter is really low-friction (Cmd+Space, Cmd+Q), macOS optimizes resource usage so running apps don't bog down the machine. I find that a lot more useful than the simple list of windows I get via Windows Alt+Tab. Grouping windows per app keeps the size of that list manageable, though there are cases when that gets in the way somewhat. That's true for Alt+Tab too, it gets crowded real quick, requiring a lot more tab-ing.
- Another advantage of the macOS paradigm: Less background agents; seems every other app on Windows has one. By far not as frequent on macOS since you don't necessarily need a background service to speed up starting times or run updates; I see those things mostly in apps that have been sloppily transplanted from Windows, or that actually need to do meaningful work when the app isn't running, like Little Snitch.
- Cmd+Tab does restore hidden windows, just not minimized ones. A distinction that Windows doesn't have, IIRC, but one that I find useful. Cmd+H is for getting things out of sight, minimize is for getting things out of the way completely. Windows minimize is more like hide, but for individual windows.
- I like the single menu bar; every app has one, and it's always in the same place, and it's always the foremost app's and even if I don't have an active window right now, I can still run updates, open files, open windows, ... without a launcher screen or similar cludges. I think Windows integrates something similar into a task icon popup these days. I've noticed many modern Windows apps have their own ideas about what a menu should look like, how you access it, whether you need one in the first place, whether you should be able to navigate it by keyboard. IIRC even Office does that, not a fan. On macOS you can assign a keyboard shortcut to every menu item of any app via System Preferences, you can search menu items, there are apps that render nice overlays with the available functionality and keyboard shortcuts based on the menus, all of that's up to the individual app on Windows (and it seems most are moving towards mouse-only navigation there). The macOS menu system is also pretty neat for accessibility and automation. I've built apps (not for wider distribution) that consisted of just the menu and didn't even have a real UI, because that's enough for some things, super quick and easy to build from non-Apple languages, and trivial to automate.
You seem to feel like macOS should be a carbon copy of Windows w.r.t. window management, but it's not, macOS apps are pretty different conceptually than Windows applications, and different states are supposed to mean different things, interactions aren't supposed to work the same, different compromises in a lot of places. Both approaches work and have a theoretical underpinning that I think is sound, it's just different, and I think it's nice to have options. You want the Windows way of doing things? I guess Windows is always going to do the best job at being Windows, so use that? Unless you're still at Apple, then I guess you're out of luck.
> It can also create a window for applications that lack them when you switch to them; this is a huge boon for Finder.
I agree it's annoying that Finder doesn't do this (somehow it's almost the only app where that behaviour annoys me). I probably could do something like that in Hammerspoon, too. Hmmmm.
- BuckyBeaver 4y agoThanks for the thoughtful reply. Most of what you cite here isn't dependent on the single-menu design, however. Application startup time, the way things are listed in Alt-Tab galleries, "background agents..." Valid beefs, perhaps, but none is related to the single-menu issue. "I like the single menu bar; every app has one, and it's always in the same place, and it's always the foremost app's" That's simply not true. I can have one application on my Mac screen, Safari, and yet the menu belongs to Mail. That's just dumb. You do correctly call out one of the (sadly plentiful) regressions in Windows: the sudden deletion of the standard menu from many applications' window frames. It was just as "findable" as the Mac's for most of Windows's existence, but now it's just often... missing. WTF? The Office UI is an absolute shitshow, and the rest of Windows has been circling the drain for years. Therefore no, I don't think the Mac should be a copy of Windows. I just hate the single-menu design and the pervasive UI clumsiness that has emanated from it. Any mode of operation it offers can also be offered by any other windowing GUI, minus of course the glued-in-place single menu... actually, you can mimic even that by maximizing your applications and Alt-Tabbing between them.
- dividedbyzero 4y ago> > "I like the single menu bar; every app has one, and it's always in the same place, and it's always the foremost app's" > That's simply not true. I can have one application on my Mac screen, Safari, and yet the menu belongs to Mail. That's just dumb. Right, it's the one belonging to the active application, not the foremost one (though, most often, the two will be the same). On Windows, an application and its main UI are very tightly coupled; macOS sees the two as separate entities, and I think Mail is a good example for an app where that totally makes sense, since that way I can open a new e-mail dialog without going through the main UI; just Cmd+Tab to Mail, Cmd+N, or Cmd+0 if I need the main UI, and if I don't explicitly close it or minimize it (and Cmd+H instead or just Cmd+Tab back to the browser or whatever) it'll come right up when I Cmd+Tab to Mail. I think that's a pretty smart way of doing things. Similarly, with Finder, I can just hit Cmd+K for the "Connect to Server" dialog, Enter, and I'm on my NAS since it remembers the last server address. No unneeded Explorer window popping up, no mouse required, pretty quick. I can close the current browser window and keep a minimized window with a few tabs I'll need for an activity later this evening, because the browser doesn't have to have a UI just to be active. Those tabs sit down there and out of the way, but I still have them and their state. Windows would force the minimized window to the foreground when I Alt+Tab to the browser, and it's hard to think of a system-wide scheme that does what you want, but still allows for this. I think actually the macOS paradigm is quite a bit more flexible. > Therefore no, I don't think the Mac should be a copy of Windows. I just hate the single-menu design and the pervasive UI clumsiness that has emanated from it. How tightly an app and its UI are coupled has nothing to do with the single menubar. It does sound like you have a very strong preference for the way Windows does things, and you expect things to work that way, and where they don't, you hate that. Why don't you just stick with Windows? After all, the great thing about having options is that I can have the macOS way and you can have the Windows way and we can all be happy.