4 ms·

I’m not a Luddite but I feel something like schadenfreude watching people give profit-driven companies access to their private lives for solved problems like “c

I’m not a Luddite but I feel something like schadenfreude watching people give profit-driven companies access to their private lives for solved problems like “cleaning the floor” and “tuning the radio”.

mrweasel 4y ago
Well, a robot vacuum cleaner is a great idea. What I don't understand is why the profit is tied to data collection. Shouldn't there be a profit in simply selling vacuum cleaner? In this case iRobot didn't exactly lie about collecting data, but how greedy/stupid do you have to be as a company to not ensure that the data collect NEVER EVER leave the servers of your AI/QA/Process-improvement lab? The company know that people are already critical of their data collection, that should have trigged the creation of a process that would ensure that once data has been collected will never leave the department that develops their AI. You know this data is sensitive, and yet you outsource handling of if it, to poorly trained freelancers, who knows nothing of data security, privacy laws or apparently common decency.
- stuaxo 4y ago
  It's just too tempting - the only way to solve this is to not collect the data at all.
- whatsthatabout 4y ago
  I love the idea of robot vacuums. In fact I own one. In my opinion one of the most useful "smart home" device currently made. Too bad the good ones are all tied to some shitty cloud (whilst they could work locally 100%). Fortunately projects like https://valetudo.cloud https://valetudo.cloud exist...
  - Adraghast 4y ago
    My Eufy one has no ability to connect to the internet but does a pretty good job of cleaning my floors.
    - gpderetta 4y ago
      My Eufy does, but its wifi led has been blinking since I bought it as I never configured it nor I have found a good reason why would I want to. Pressing the clean button seems to do everything I want it to.
    - jacooper 4y ago
      If you can still trust Eufy https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23486753/anker-eufy-security-camera-cloud-private-encryption-authentication-storage https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23486753/anker-eufy-secu...
      - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
        I feel like a product that literally doesn't have an internet connection to begin is probably sufficiently trustworthy? Pity about the rest of the company, of course
        jacooper 4y ago
        Or just block its Mac address from your network, though, make sure there are no other open WiFis nearby!
    - whatsthatabout 4y ago
      Well I like the features it can have connected to my local network like clean specific rooms or setting no-go zones but this should be done local only. Syncing settings from my phone app to the cloud back to the robot is so dumb...
  - kjkjadksj 4y ago
    I’m pretty sure my xiaomi would clean without wifi but I’m not sure if it would be able to get back to its dock on its own.
- ketchupdebugger 4y ago
  Companies right now doesn't have a good and easy way to track how data is flowing through their system. Yes, iRobot can say that it was collecting the data for improvement purposes and the data ends up in a database meant only for improvement purposes, but no tech company today can guarantee that no other processes/services are also reading/utilizing this data. All it takes is a dev from another team doing a text search for data variable names and adding that data to their db/data pipeline.
- mrobins 4y ago
  Agree in spirit but I think companies actually need to be extremely competent and consumer/privacy focused to ensure data collected NEVER leave their testing environment. It takes constant vigilance and sadly the incentives aren’t there.
- npteljes 4y ago
  >Shouldn't there be a profit in simply selling vacuum cleaner? I think that it's an attractive thing because it pays, and people generally don't care. So it's a free avenue for the company to make additional profits, or, to use this extra profit to lower the margin of the original product, thereby making it more attractive in a price competition.
junon 4y ago
Or like churning butter, or hand washing dishes!
- qwerty456127 4y ago
  My dish washing machine can connect to WiFi but I won't let it. I am afraid future models will disable this option and make the connection mandatory.
  - dorfsmay 4y ago
    When buying new appliances, wifi connectivity is a negative point in our decision matrix. We recently bought a new appliance and lack of wifi was one of the few criteria that helped us decide between two brands that had very similar models.
    - qwerty456127 4y ago
      Indeed. Good news you don't have to buy a smart TV anymore because huge monitors and projectors have recently became very good and affordable. You can then add exactly the smart features you want and control them with help of whatever a set-top-box/etc you choose. BTW there also are more minor annoyances advertised as features. I had hard time finding an electric kettle without a beeper (so it would just stop heatin once done but won't annoy me the way the microwave does or wake me up when I sleep and somebody wants a cup of tea). ~95% have the signal and ~40% don't even mention they do.
- christophilus 4y ago
  I buy butter from the store. So far, it’s never posted my nudes on Facebook. As far as I can tell, neither has my dishwasher.
Broken_Hippo 4y ago
Yeah, wouldn't want sick folks or folks with mobility/strength issues to have these things. Also wouldn't want working parents to spend time with their kids instead of doing mundane household chores. Or the person washing dishes or feeding an infant to have the ability to change the radio. And the truth is that folks don't get these things - at least not something affordable - unless they are introduced to greater society. That's really the bright side to a lot of As Seen on TV products: they might be lazy or weird for some of us, but for others they grant a bit of independence. Besides, it isn't like these folks did anything wrong besides not being able to understand the legal language the contracts are written in and doing business with a company that wasn't quite upfront with their intentions as folks would like.
- lm28469 4y ago
  > Also wouldn't want working parents to spend time with their kids instead of doing mundane household chores I love how the answer to "modern life doesn't leave enough time to do basic human tasks" is "buy a $1k+ soon to be e-waste LIDAR powered AI enabled fully autonomous vacuum cleaner" instead of "fix the damn system". We truly have completely lost our collective minds somewhere since the 90s
  - Tade0 4y ago
    Over a certain threshold no matter how much time you give a person, they won't be able to perform some tasks. You can't throw people at the problem nowadays, because there are just too few young persons. Vacuuming robots are great because while they can't replace a fit person with a vacuum, they can do half as good a job daily and largely without supervision.
  - morjom 4y ago
    I don't understand the point of this comment. Are you expressing disbelief, are you making fun the above comment? As a impaired person I find a robot vacuum a great thing.
  - danaris 4y ago
    The robot vacuums are going to be invented, going to be sold, and going to be used, regardless of whether we fix the system. Getting snarky with people because they are upset about a much smaller, more recent, and more visible change than our gradual slide into late-stage capitalism—and one that might actually be fixable without a complete overhaul of our society and culture—is deeply unhelpful. It's the very picture of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. You and these people are on the same side, so maybe try showing sympathy and compassion for their frustrations, rather than mocking them for not solely and full-throatedly advocating for an overthrow of the system.

mrweasel 4y ago

Well, a robot vacuum cleaner is a great idea. What I don't understand is why the profit is tied to data collection. Shouldn't there be a profit in simply selling vacuum cleaner? In this case iRobot didn't exactly lie about collecting data, but how greedy/stupid do you have to be as a company to not ensure that the data collect NEVER EVER leave the servers of your AI/QA/Process-improvement lab? The company know that people are already critical of their data collection, that should have trigged the creation of a process that would ensure that once data has been collected will never leave the department that develops their AI. You know this data is sensitive, and yet you outsource handling of if it, to poorly trained freelancers, who knows nothing of data security, privacy laws or apparently common decency.

stuaxo 4y ago
It's just too tempting - the only way to solve this is to not collect the data at all.
whatsthatabout 4y ago
I love the idea of robot vacuums. In fact I own one. In my opinion one of the most useful "smart home" device currently made. Too bad the good ones are all tied to some shitty cloud (whilst they could work locally 100%). Fortunately projects like https://valetudo.cloud https://valetudo.cloud exist...
- Adraghast 4y ago
  My Eufy one has no ability to connect to the internet but does a pretty good job of cleaning my floors.
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    My Eufy does, but its wifi led has been blinking since I bought it as I never configured it nor I have found a good reason why would I want to. Pressing the clean button seems to do everything I want it to.
  - jacooper 4y ago
    If you can still trust Eufy https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23486753/anker-eufy-security-camera-cloud-private-encryption-authentication-storage https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/30/23486753/anker-eufy-secu...
    - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
      I feel like a product that literally doesn't have an internet connection to begin is probably sufficiently trustworthy? Pity about the rest of the company, of course
      - jacooper 4y ago
        Or just block its Mac address from your network, though, make sure there are no other open WiFis nearby!
  - whatsthatabout 4y ago
    Well I like the features it can have connected to my local network like clean specific rooms or setting no-go zones but this should be done local only. Syncing settings from my phone app to the cloud back to the robot is so dumb...
- kjkjadksj 4y ago
  I’m pretty sure my xiaomi would clean without wifi but I’m not sure if it would be able to get back to its dock on its own.
ketchupdebugger 4y ago
Companies right now doesn't have a good and easy way to track how data is flowing through their system. Yes, iRobot can say that it was collecting the data for improvement purposes and the data ends up in a database meant only for improvement purposes, but no tech company today can guarantee that no other processes/services are also reading/utilizing this data. All it takes is a dev from another team doing a text search for data variable names and adding that data to their db/data pipeline.
mrobins 4y ago
Agree in spirit but I think companies actually need to be extremely competent and consumer/privacy focused to ensure data collected NEVER leave their testing environment. It takes constant vigilance and sadly the incentives aren’t there.
npteljes 4y ago
>Shouldn't there be a profit in simply selling vacuum cleaner? I think that it's an attractive thing because it pays, and people generally don't care. So it's a free avenue for the company to make additional profits, or, to use this extra profit to lower the margin of the original product, thereby making it more attractive in a price competition.

junon 4y ago

Or like churning butter, or hand washing dishes!

qwerty456127 4y ago
My dish washing machine can connect to WiFi but I won't let it. I am afraid future models will disable this option and make the connection mandatory.
- dorfsmay 4y ago
  When buying new appliances, wifi connectivity is a negative point in our decision matrix. We recently bought a new appliance and lack of wifi was one of the few criteria that helped us decide between two brands that had very similar models.
  - qwerty456127 4y ago
    Indeed. Good news you don't have to buy a smart TV anymore because huge monitors and projectors have recently became very good and affordable. You can then add exactly the smart features you want and control them with help of whatever a set-top-box/etc you choose. BTW there also are more minor annoyances advertised as features. I had hard time finding an electric kettle without a beeper (so it would just stop heatin once done but won't annoy me the way the microwave does or wake me up when I sleep and somebody wants a cup of tea). ~95% have the signal and ~40% don't even mention they do.
christophilus 4y ago
I buy butter from the store. So far, it’s never posted my nudes on Facebook. As far as I can tell, neither has my dishwasher.

Broken_Hippo 4y ago

Yeah, wouldn't want sick folks or folks with mobility/strength issues to have these things. Also wouldn't want working parents to spend time with their kids instead of doing mundane household chores. Or the person washing dishes or feeding an infant to have the ability to change the radio. And the truth is that folks don't get these things - at least not something affordable - unless they are introduced to greater society. That's really the bright side to a lot of As Seen on TV products: they might be lazy or weird for some of us, but for others they grant a bit of independence. Besides, it isn't like these folks did anything wrong besides not being able to understand the legal language the contracts are written in and doing business with a company that wasn't quite upfront with their intentions as folks would like.

lm28469 4y ago
> Also wouldn't want working parents to spend time with their kids instead of doing mundane household chores I love how the answer to "modern life doesn't leave enough time to do basic human tasks" is "buy a $1k+ soon to be e-waste LIDAR powered AI enabled fully autonomous vacuum cleaner" instead of "fix the damn system". We truly have completely lost our collective minds somewhere since the 90s
- Tade0 4y ago
  Over a certain threshold no matter how much time you give a person, they won't be able to perform some tasks. You can't throw people at the problem nowadays, because there are just too few young persons. Vacuuming robots are great because while they can't replace a fit person with a vacuum, they can do half as good a job daily and largely without supervision.
- morjom 4y ago
  I don't understand the point of this comment. Are you expressing disbelief, are you making fun the above comment? As a impaired person I find a robot vacuum a great thing.
- danaris 4y ago
  The robot vacuums are going to be invented, going to be sold, and going to be used, regardless of whether we fix the system. Getting snarky with people because they are upset about a much smaller, more recent, and more visible change than our gradual slide into late-stage capitalism—and one that might actually be fixable without a complete overhaul of our society and culture—is deeply unhelpful. It's the very picture of letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. You and these people are on the same side, so maybe try showing sympathy and compassion for their frustrations, rather than mocking them for not solely and full-throatedly advocating for an overthrow of the system.