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So what’s your alternative? At the end of the day, certain things can only work if we align everyone. You can’t have half the electorate paying 10% tax but no p

So what’s your alternative? At the end of the day, certain things can only work if we align everyone. You can’t have half the electorate paying 10% tax but no police service and half the country paying 15% tax but getting police

WalterBright 4y ago
That's under the government's purview. It has nothing to do with employees vs business. Unless you're arguing that businesses should be operated by the government.
- namdnay 4y ago
  you just said > Or let's put it another way. The Dems are for purple cars, the Reps are for yellow cars. We all get to vote on what we get! Is that freedom? What if I want a purple car, and the vote went yellow? What if I want a red car? you weren't talking about government here?
- CPLX 4y ago
  The reasons for people to band together in the form of government to collectively hire police and to band together as a union to collectively bargain with employers are the same, namely to protect members of society from those who would cause them harm. The idea of “freedom” from government as a frame of reference here is bullshit. The entire concept of a corporation is a government created legal fiction, and an arbitrary one. Corporations are required to do hundreds of thousands of things. Jeff Bezos can rent a warehouse and talk people into going there and do whatever the fuck he wants. But if he wants limited liability, access to the roads and waterways the society creates and manages, enforcement of property rights, and the permission to enter a joint stock partnership to fund it he needs government permission, also known as the permission of society. The fact of Amazon even existing at all is a privilege granted by the state that can be revoked at any time. I don’t have the freedom to negotiate as I see fit with my employer. I also don’t have the freedom to punch Jeff Bezos in the nuts for not paying fair wages and I am not allowed to be a hairdresser if I don’t pass an exam or sell securities without registering them or pork that I’ve been storing in my attic all week. We regulate every single aspect of commerce, it’s a choice we’ve made as a society.
  - simple-thoughts 4y ago
    This is correct. All modern corporations are extensions of the state and should be viewed no differently than government agencies. Privately owned and operated entities are a different matter, as these have existed long before the state and continue to exist today in stateless zones.
  - nickpp 4y ago
    > The reasons for people to band together in the form of government [...] to protect members of society from those who would cause them harm. Or to exploit and rob minority members of said society. The "good willed" government does not exist and has no reason to: it owns the ultimate monopoly, on violence. Most governments today on the planet are evil. The list of atrocities perpetrated by governments is as long as civilization's history and completely dwarfs the list of bad things done by corporations. > The fact of Amazon even existing at all is a privilege granted by the state that can be revoked at any time. States tried getting rid of corporations. Their citizens starved. The truth is, most value created by companies is captured by the society at large (the value we get from the stuff we buy is much larger than the cost we pay), not the company owners or employees.

WalterBright 4y ago

That's under the government's purview. It has nothing to do with employees vs business. Unless you're arguing that businesses should be operated by the government.

namdnay 4y ago
you just said > Or let's put it another way. The Dems are for purple cars, the Reps are for yellow cars. We all get to vote on what we get! Is that freedom? What if I want a purple car, and the vote went yellow? What if I want a red car? you weren't talking about government here?
CPLX 4y ago
The reasons for people to band together in the form of government to collectively hire police and to band together as a union to collectively bargain with employers are the same, namely to protect members of society from those who would cause them harm. The idea of “freedom” from government as a frame of reference here is bullshit. The entire concept of a corporation is a government created legal fiction, and an arbitrary one. Corporations are required to do hundreds of thousands of things. Jeff Bezos can rent a warehouse and talk people into going there and do whatever the fuck he wants. But if he wants limited liability, access to the roads and waterways the society creates and manages, enforcement of property rights, and the permission to enter a joint stock partnership to fund it he needs government permission, also known as the permission of society. The fact of Amazon even existing at all is a privilege granted by the state that can be revoked at any time. I don’t have the freedom to negotiate as I see fit with my employer. I also don’t have the freedom to punch Jeff Bezos in the nuts for not paying fair wages and I am not allowed to be a hairdresser if I don’t pass an exam or sell securities without registering them or pork that I’ve been storing in my attic all week. We regulate every single aspect of commerce, it’s a choice we’ve made as a society.
- simple-thoughts 4y ago
  This is correct. All modern corporations are extensions of the state and should be viewed no differently than government agencies. Privately owned and operated entities are a different matter, as these have existed long before the state and continue to exist today in stateless zones.
- nickpp 4y ago
  > The reasons for people to band together in the form of government [...] to protect members of society from those who would cause them harm. Or to exploit and rob minority members of said society. The "good willed" government does not exist and has no reason to: it owns the ultimate monopoly, on violence. Most governments today on the planet are evil. The list of atrocities perpetrated by governments is as long as civilization's history and completely dwarfs the list of bad things done by corporations. > The fact of Amazon even existing at all is a privilege granted by the state that can be revoked at any time. States tried getting rid of corporations. Their citizens starved. The truth is, most value created by companies is captured by the society at large (the value we get from the stuff we buy is much larger than the cost we pay), not the company owners or employees.