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The Soviet Union was a vast and diverse territory with a wide range of cultural and educational systems. However, the reality for many in the scientific communi

The Soviet Union was a vast and diverse territory with a wide range of cultural and educational systems. However, the reality for many in the scientific community was one of forced labor and control by the politburo. Fundamental rights such as freedom of speech and academic freedom were suppressed and non-existent. Modern people must remember that they were told what to work on, when, and how much they would get paid. There wasn't the concept of Sundays or vacations as we have today. There were no choices, only the government's choice.

ivan_gammel 4y ago
This is not true.
- nickpp 4y ago
  I can attest that in the Eastern Block (not USSR) where I lived, this was indeed true. Things could've been different in the USSR which was the conquering country while the Eastern Block their vassals. Many goods produced went straight to the benefit of Russian occupiers while lacking in the Eastern European countries.
  - ivan_gammel 4y ago
    So you can attest something different than life of middle class of SU. How is this relevant? I lived in middle class family in SU and I see it differently.
  - meerita 4y ago
    Just look at the evidence: scientists fleed USSR as soon as they had the chance and not the reverse, scientists invading USSR begging to be in the science paradise the propapaganda sells. If you go to Cuba to learn medicine, you will realise everything is so outdated that cannot be treated seriously. Same happened in USSR, but the propaganda aparatus still works trying to sell the idea of the science paradise, all I've seen traveling to ex USSR, and some communist-socialist places is quite the opposite.
    - ivan_gammel 4y ago
      This is certainly not true. I do not know where you get it from, but real brain drain started after transition to a presumably better capitalist democratic system and it happened due to economic reasons. The funding simply went down by orders of magnitude, which made scientific work impossible. Your personal tourist impressions are not making you closer to understanding of such a big country with such complicated history. Try reading some books if you are really interested.
      - ityngyn 4y ago
        The real brain drain started when people were finally allowed to flee the paradise and what was left of it. It wasn't their fault your apparatchiks and yesterday's party members, the real owners of everything, started to carve up their posessions calling themselves capitalists this time. Before the fall only establishment members could flee (illegally) and jews (since the 1970s).
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - meerita 4y ago
        I have read books, of course. But brain drainage for sure were prior the dissolution. You can read for example about the Operation Osoaviakhim, where 2500 scientists (and their families) were forced to go the soviet union as war reparations. Or the book The Murder of Nikolai Vavilov: The Story of the Persecution of One of the Great Scientists, were you can read how beautiful was science in the soviet union.
- mantas 4y ago
  This is completely true aside from „no sundays“ bit.
  - ivan_gammel 4y ago
    Forced labor in science? Probably you are referring to “sharashka” — research labs using work of prisoners, but they existed only in Stalin era. There was no forced labor in scientific work before 1928 or after 1953-55. So what exactly is completely true in that fiction?
    - mantas 4y ago
      1) Not working was illegal in USSR. 2) After graduation, you'd get an assignment for your first workplace. Technically you could choose, but in reality the choice was limited and it was more like companies headhunting students. There was no option to refuse all assignments and go on your own. A partial opt-outs was to get married while in university. If your partner already has a job, then you'll probably get an assignment in same city. Although sometimes they'd just get your partner to move too :) 3) Hiring even for unskilled jobs was highly political. E.g. political prisoners of Stalin era, after returning, would have very hard time to get even a cleaner's job. If somebody had a specific position for you in mind, they had all tools to make it happen. 4) Changing jobs was pretty difficult. You couldn't just leave, move to another city and then look for another job. You couldn't get registration in another city without employment. You'd have to find a company that will agree to hire you first. And if you were needed at your current job... They could easily talk to that company to not hire you (after all both managers were members of the party). Unless that other company really wanted you and the manager had enough political weight to make it happen. All in all, was it forced labor at gunpoint? No. But free will to pick employment was very limited to say the least.
      - ivan_gammel 4y ago
        (1) Yes (2) Yes, but that was only for university graduates, it was time-bound and came with additional job security guarantees and often with guaranteed accommodation. Not sure if it’s really different from some modern contracts. (3) I suggest to stop referencing Stalin era as something that is characteristic for the entire history of SU. It was not the longest period and it was indeed special. In other periods being forced to do a particular job was a rare thing. (4) There were restrictions on the process of changing the job, but compare that to modern world: large notice periods on contracts, non-compete agreements, visas - is it the world of forced labor or sometimes employers have stronger negotiation power than you?
bawolff 4y ago
I'm not disputing that the soviet union lacked freedom, but: > how much they would get paid Most people in capitalist countries have very limited control over how much they are paid.
- nickpp 4y ago
  You mean like negotiating their pay, changing their employer or even the city they lived in? Those simple things were completely impossible under communism: the only employer was The State and you needed papers to move. Of course things were different if you were part of the nomenklatura (leading party) or the secret police. You were a winner in communism then.
  - ivan_gammel 4y ago
    Changing employer or city was certainly possible. I do not think you are really familiar with history of SU.
    - estaset 4y ago
      Becoming a multi-millionaire nowadays is possible, too. Why aren't you one?
    - meerita 4y ago
      Of course it was, but I am not talking about possibilities, but more on the probabilities side, just to point out: In a socialist regime, job assignments are made by the state. The state controls most industries and companies, and is responsible for assigning jobs to citizens. However, there may be corruption in the system where individuals in positions of power use their influence to give jobs and favors. It's important to note that the reality of socialist systems can vary significantly depending on the country or region in question and may have different characteristics than described. But the basics of the corruption system is the same. In fact, low level officials traded jobs, cigarettes, food, for sex if it was a woman who wanted a favor or a job, and rubles if they were males, there are accounts of men giving their wives in order to obtain promotions, jobs, or moving to a another city. In Venezuela as an example, or Cuba, it happens the same. Citizens don't deal with the State, they deal with low level officials who have the veto power. Basically you become a slave.

ivan_gammel 4y ago

This is not true.

nickpp 4y ago
I can attest that in the Eastern Block (not USSR) where I lived, this was indeed true. Things could've been different in the USSR which was the conquering country while the Eastern Block their vassals. Many goods produced went straight to the benefit of Russian occupiers while lacking in the Eastern European countries.
- ivan_gammel 4y ago
  So you can attest something different than life of middle class of SU. How is this relevant? I lived in middle class family in SU and I see it differently.
- meerita 4y ago
  Just look at the evidence: scientists fleed USSR as soon as they had the chance and not the reverse, scientists invading USSR begging to be in the science paradise the propapaganda sells. If you go to Cuba to learn medicine, you will realise everything is so outdated that cannot be treated seriously. Same happened in USSR, but the propaganda aparatus still works trying to sell the idea of the science paradise, all I've seen traveling to ex USSR, and some communist-socialist places is quite the opposite.
  - ivan_gammel 4y ago
    This is certainly not true. I do not know where you get it from, but real brain drain started after transition to a presumably better capitalist democratic system and it happened due to economic reasons. The funding simply went down by orders of magnitude, which made scientific work impossible. Your personal tourist impressions are not making you closer to understanding of such a big country with such complicated history. Try reading some books if you are really interested.
    - ityngyn 4y ago
      The real brain drain started when people were finally allowed to flee the paradise and what was left of it. It wasn't their fault your apparatchiks and yesterday's party members, the real owners of everything, started to carve up their posessions calling themselves capitalists this time. Before the fall only establishment members could flee (illegally) and jews (since the 1970s).
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - meerita 4y ago
      I have read books, of course. But brain drainage for sure were prior the dissolution. You can read for example about the Operation Osoaviakhim, where 2500 scientists (and their families) were forced to go the soviet union as war reparations. Or the book The Murder of Nikolai Vavilov: The Story of the Persecution of One of the Great Scientists, were you can read how beautiful was science in the soviet union.
mantas 4y ago
This is completely true aside from „no sundays“ bit.
- ivan_gammel 4y ago
  Forced labor in science? Probably you are referring to “sharashka” — research labs using work of prisoners, but they existed only in Stalin era. There was no forced labor in scientific work before 1928 or after 1953-55. So what exactly is completely true in that fiction?
  - mantas 4y ago
    1) Not working was illegal in USSR. 2) After graduation, you'd get an assignment for your first workplace. Technically you could choose, but in reality the choice was limited and it was more like companies headhunting students. There was no option to refuse all assignments and go on your own. A partial opt-outs was to get married while in university. If your partner already has a job, then you'll probably get an assignment in same city. Although sometimes they'd just get your partner to move too :) 3) Hiring even for unskilled jobs was highly political. E.g. political prisoners of Stalin era, after returning, would have very hard time to get even a cleaner's job. If somebody had a specific position for you in mind, they had all tools to make it happen. 4) Changing jobs was pretty difficult. You couldn't just leave, move to another city and then look for another job. You couldn't get registration in another city without employment. You'd have to find a company that will agree to hire you first. And if you were needed at your current job... They could easily talk to that company to not hire you (after all both managers were members of the party). Unless that other company really wanted you and the manager had enough political weight to make it happen. All in all, was it forced labor at gunpoint? No. But free will to pick employment was very limited to say the least.
    - ivan_gammel 4y ago
      (1) Yes (2) Yes, but that was only for university graduates, it was time-bound and came with additional job security guarantees and often with guaranteed accommodation. Not sure if it’s really different from some modern contracts. (3) I suggest to stop referencing Stalin era as something that is characteristic for the entire history of SU. It was not the longest period and it was indeed special. In other periods being forced to do a particular job was a rare thing. (4) There were restrictions on the process of changing the job, but compare that to modern world: large notice periods on contracts, non-compete agreements, visas - is it the world of forced labor or sometimes employers have stronger negotiation power than you?

bawolff 4y ago

I'm not disputing that the soviet union lacked freedom, but: > how much they would get paid Most people in capitalist countries have very limited control over how much they are paid.

nickpp 4y ago
You mean like negotiating their pay, changing their employer or even the city they lived in? Those simple things were completely impossible under communism: the only employer was The State and you needed papers to move. Of course things were different if you were part of the nomenklatura (leading party) or the secret police. You were a winner in communism then.
- ivan_gammel 4y ago
  Changing employer or city was certainly possible. I do not think you are really familiar with history of SU.
  - estaset 4y ago
    Becoming a multi-millionaire nowadays is possible, too. Why aren't you one?
  - meerita 4y ago
    Of course it was, but I am not talking about possibilities, but more on the probabilities side, just to point out: In a socialist regime, job assignments are made by the state. The state controls most industries and companies, and is responsible for assigning jobs to citizens. However, there may be corruption in the system where individuals in positions of power use their influence to give jobs and favors. It's important to note that the reality of socialist systems can vary significantly depending on the country or region in question and may have different characteristics than described. But the basics of the corruption system is the same. In fact, low level officials traded jobs, cigarettes, food, for sex if it was a woman who wanted a favor or a job, and rubles if they were males, there are accounts of men giving their wives in order to obtain promotions, jobs, or moving to a another city. In Venezuela as an example, or Cuba, it happens the same. Citizens don't deal with the State, they deal with low level officials who have the veto power. Basically you become a slave.