4 ms·

Talk about cherry picking. The first article I see is a plain report.

ninjagoo 4y ago
> If the employer won't listen, the usual thing to do is quit, start their own business, and outcompete them. There are lots of small business coffeeshops. They aren't terribly hard to get going. After reading through all the comments in this thread, I'm of the opinion that Walter Bright isn't discussing this in good faith. Take his comment quoted above: starting a simple coffee shop requires capital anywhere from $80k - $250k (yes, I have researched this). No hourly wage worker or grouping of workers will have that kind of capital, nor access to it. Walter Bright has argued elsewhere that loans are a thing with a good business plan. Again - it's a bad faith argument because business plans do not fall from the sky - it takes time and knowledge to put one together and if we've learned one thing in America - hourly wage workers do not have time nor education to write one. And oh, Banks do not lend that kind of money simply based on a "business plan", they require collateral, which hourly wage workers do not have. I call <cough> bee <cough> es on Walter Bright's arguments.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  People start businesses all the time, including coffee shops. Yes, they get loans to start them. > hourly wage workers do not have time nor education to write one There are endless books and online resources to help with that. Besides, as a worker in a coffee shop, you have a great opportunity right in front of you to study how the business works. Besides, it doesn't have to be a coffee shop. There are endless businesses that need little to no capital to start. You can even start with a portable coffee cart, which doesn't cost much to lease. > isn't discussing this in good faith It's sad you feel that way. Opportunity in America is all around you. It's why millions of destitute people are desperate to get over the border. What do they see that you don't? Or, to put it another way, I have a positive point of view.
  - ninjagoo 4y ago
    Prove it. Walk away from your wealth, take a job as an hourly worker in a coffee shop, live as they do, start with the zero assets that a typical coffee shop worker has, make no use of your connections or wealth for the duration of the experiment, and we'll agree that your age has contra-compensated your higher IQ and education level. And let's negate your existing knowledge of how to write business plans by stipulating that no plan will be written for 4 months, and that any loan taken must be under the name of a co-worker similarly situated (no assets, no credit history) and cannot have any guarantors including yourself. Any loans must be from an FDIC-insured Bank or NCUA Credit Union or a regulated institution. This experiment must be done in a tier-3 mid-western or southern city or rural area in a red state and you can move if you wish to, but within those location parameters. These last two stipulations are to negate the advantages of better public infrastructure or public services. Oh, and you cannot rely on public services such as social security - your only source of income for the experiment must be your wage work or assets acquired through the experiment, any medical services must be either free to indigents or through your work or work insurance or paid for through experiment income or assets, and must not be medicare and the like that you're eligible for. You can reference your previous work and life, but only in generics, and not in any manner that conveys an advantage immediately or over time. If any advantage is proffered based on your prior life, education or knowledge, you must decline. Needless to say, taking advantage of your credit history would be a no-no. Obviously, you'll need some stuff, coffee shop workers have families too, so say 7 sets of clothes worth no more than $60 per set; a feature phone for safety and your IDs. If a smartphone is taken, it cannot be traded or sold. I'm debating whether or not you're allowed a car with current value less than $1000 and purchased where you decide to experiment. Since you said destitute people are desperate to get across the border without analyzing why, let's say not. You cannot lie or cheat, nor make promises to people based on your non-experiment assets, including your name. Any family or friends that accompany you are subject to the same terms. The number of companions cannot exceed 1. Any travel or life during the experiment must be supported only by income from within the experiment. How long would you like to run this experiment for?
    - ninjagoo 4y ago
      Replying here because it looks like responses to the GP comment are closed. I just realized something amusing in Walter Bright's arguments. It started as: > There are lots of small business coffeeshops. They aren't terribly hard to get going. After pointing out capital asks of $80k - $250k and how hard it is to get loans without collateral, that Coffee Shop became: > Besides, it doesn't have to be a coffee shop. There are endless businesses that need little to no capital to start. You can even start with a portable coffee cart, which doesn't cost much to lease. Behold: a Coffee Cart! Following that trend line, where will our fearless optimistic American Entrepreneur actually start? Perhaps, Sir, may I present: a Coffee Cup! or this Bag of Coffee! I do believe there is an official term for this: "Pulling Oneself Up By The Bootstraps". In the meantime, something was trending in the other direction: "Lots of small business coffeeshops" became "endless businesses that need little to no capital to start". Now because I'm just curious now, how many bootstrap cups of coffee would have to be sold to get to our aspirational coffeeshop ($100k capital)? My French Roast morning coffee costs about $0.5 in material costs and electricity. Let's say our fearless optimist manages to sell it for $1 - it's no Starbucks drink, after all, and even Tim Hortons sells it for $1.5 or thereabouts, and we're hawking it from the trunk of our jalopy. That's 200k cups of coffee. If we sold a 100 cups a day, it would take 2000 days or 5.5 years. I suppose our Bootstrapping Entrepreneur could probably get away with munching on Coffee instead of meals, and they surely have a magical coffee machine that never breaks down or needs to be replaced. See, bootstrapping is totally doable, only takes 5.5 years!!! F***

> If the employer won't listen, the usual thing to do is quit, start their own business, and outcompete them. There are lots of small business coffeeshops. They aren't terribly hard to get going. After reading through all the comments in this thread, I'm of the opinion that Walter Bright isn't discussing this in good faith. Take his comment quoted above: starting a simple coffee shop requires capital anywhere from $80k - $250k (yes, I have researched this). No hourly wage worker or grouping of workers will have that kind of capital, nor access to it. Walter Bright has argued elsewhere that loans are a thing with a good business plan. Again - it's a bad faith argument because business plans do not fall from the sky - it takes time and knowledge to put one together and if we've learned one thing in America - hourly wage workers do not have time nor education to write one. And oh, Banks do not lend that kind of money simply based on a "business plan", they require collateral, which hourly wage workers do not have. I call <cough> bee <cough> es on Walter Bright's arguments.

WalterBright 4y ago
People start businesses all the time, including coffee shops. Yes, they get loans to start them. > hourly wage workers do not have time nor education to write one There are endless books and online resources to help with that. Besides, as a worker in a coffee shop, you have a great opportunity right in front of you to study how the business works. Besides, it doesn't have to be a coffee shop. There are endless businesses that need little to no capital to start. You can even start with a portable coffee cart, which doesn't cost much to lease. > isn't discussing this in good faith It's sad you feel that way. Opportunity in America is all around you. It's why millions of destitute people are desperate to get over the border. What do they see that you don't? Or, to put it another way, I have a positive point of view.
- ninjagoo 4y ago
  Prove it. Walk away from your wealth, take a job as an hourly worker in a coffee shop, live as they do, start with the zero assets that a typical coffee shop worker has, make no use of your connections or wealth for the duration of the experiment, and we'll agree that your age has contra-compensated your higher IQ and education level. And let's negate your existing knowledge of how to write business plans by stipulating that no plan will be written for 4 months, and that any loan taken must be under the name of a co-worker similarly situated (no assets, no credit history) and cannot have any guarantors including yourself. Any loans must be from an FDIC-insured Bank or NCUA Credit Union or a regulated institution. This experiment must be done in a tier-3 mid-western or southern city or rural area in a red state and you can move if you wish to, but within those location parameters. These last two stipulations are to negate the advantages of better public infrastructure or public services. Oh, and you cannot rely on public services such as social security - your only source of income for the experiment must be your wage work or assets acquired through the experiment, any medical services must be either free to indigents or through your work or work insurance or paid for through experiment income or assets, and must not be medicare and the like that you're eligible for. You can reference your previous work and life, but only in generics, and not in any manner that conveys an advantage immediately or over time. If any advantage is proffered based on your prior life, education or knowledge, you must decline. Needless to say, taking advantage of your credit history would be a no-no. Obviously, you'll need some stuff, coffee shop workers have families too, so say 7 sets of clothes worth no more than $60 per set; a feature phone for safety and your IDs. If a smartphone is taken, it cannot be traded or sold. I'm debating whether or not you're allowed a car with current value less than $1000 and purchased where you decide to experiment. Since you said destitute people are desperate to get across the border without analyzing why, let's say not. You cannot lie or cheat, nor make promises to people based on your non-experiment assets, including your name. Any family or friends that accompany you are subject to the same terms. The number of companions cannot exceed 1. Any travel or life during the experiment must be supported only by income from within the experiment. How long would you like to run this experiment for?
  - ninjagoo 4y ago
    Replying here because it looks like responses to the GP comment are closed. I just realized something amusing in Walter Bright's arguments. It started as: > There are lots of small business coffeeshops. They aren't terribly hard to get going. After pointing out capital asks of $80k - $250k and how hard it is to get loans without collateral, that Coffee Shop became: > Besides, it doesn't have to be a coffee shop. There are endless businesses that need little to no capital to start. You can even start with a portable coffee cart, which doesn't cost much to lease. Behold: a Coffee Cart! Following that trend line, where will our fearless optimistic American Entrepreneur actually start? Perhaps, Sir, may I present: a Coffee Cup! or this Bag of Coffee! I do believe there is an official term for this: "Pulling Oneself Up By The Bootstraps". In the meantime, something was trending in the other direction: "Lots of small business coffeeshops" became "endless businesses that need little to no capital to start". Now because I'm just curious now, how many bootstrap cups of coffee would have to be sold to get to our aspirational coffeeshop ($100k capital)? My French Roast morning coffee costs about $0.5 in material costs and electricity. Let's say our fearless optimist manages to sell it for $1 - it's no Starbucks drink, after all, and even Tim Hortons sells it for $1.5 or thereabouts, and we're hawking it from the trunk of our jalopy. That's 200k cups of coffee. If we sold a 100 cups a day, it would take 2000 days or 5.5 years. I suppose our Bootstrapping Entrepreneur could probably get away with munching on Coffee instead of meals, and they surely have a magical coffee machine that never breaks down or needs to be replaced. See, bootstrapping is totally doable, only takes 5.5 years!!! F***