4 ms·

Employers tend to view their employees at adversaries first. Nobody wastes time with an union if their employer aims to treat them in a way that both sides win.

by atoav 4y ago

Employers tend to view their employees at adversaries first. Nobody wastes time with an union if their employer aims to treat them in a way that both sides win. You unionize, when your employer fucks you over once too much. Employers typically do all of that to extract more value than is rightfully theirs from their employers or to make their own lives easier at the expense of their employers (e.g. by ignoring safety regulations). So unions naturally form when employers go to far. A clever employer who is after an actual win-win situation might anticipate this and skip the entire thing by providing actual countermeasures against the tendency to fuck over ones employess themselves.

WalterBright 4y ago
> Employers tend to view their employees at adversaries first. Then take the high road first. > e.g. by ignoring safety regulations If employers do that, then the employees need to report them to the regulators. Don't need a union for that.
- atoav 4y ago
  > If employers do that, then the employees need to report them to the regulators. Don't need a union for that. Good luck on thst. The regulator is in the same country club as your boss. On top of that most of the worker rights and safety rules that regulator is meant to check came to be because unions fought for them. Read on the history of these rights and regulations in the dawn of worker movements. This is not some new unknown topic, but something people have fought for over centuries. The incentives of the regulators and governing bodies will rarely align with workers rights, hence the need for those people to organize for their own good. Don't get me wrong here I do not suggest that employers are always evil and unions always good, this is not what history shows. Far from it. Yet historically whenever workers lives improved, there is a big chance unions were involved as a driving force. I'd love to see a world where companies would treat their employees in such a way, unions don't need to exist. But that is not how companies operate in most cases.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    There's nothing wrong with a union working for a safer workplace.
- genocidicbunny 4y ago
  > Then take the high road first. The high road doesn't pay the rent. It doesn't feed your kids. You're in an incredibly privileged position Walter, and unlike the vast majority of people you have actual bargaining power and the ability to negotiate terms. Most everything you've written in this thread is incredibly out of touch with the situation many workers, especially ones that would find themselves working at an Amazon warehouse, find themselves in.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    I come from a lower middle class family. I went to public school. My parents paid for half of my college, I did the other half. These days anyone can get a loan for the full ride. My parents financed my other endeavors with exactly $0. I'm bald, not tall and nobody has ever called me handsome. Starbucks offers to pay full college tuition for their employees. I suspect the salient difference with me is I see opportunity everywhere in America, where others do not. All I'm doing here is pointing out that opportunity. Note that the millions who try to sweep over the border into America seem to see that opportunity, too.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      And you don't stop to consider why everyone doesn't see the same opportunities you did? That maybe something has changed since you took advantage of them? > Starbucks offers to pay full college tuition for their employees. No starbucks offers tuition reimbursement, for the online programs only, at one school, for some degrees, if you complete the entire degree while working at starbucks. Almost no one is actually able to take advantage of that. It's for their customers to feel better about supporting starbucks not for their workers to go to college. This is actually a great opportunity for you to pull your head out of your ass and see how the world actually is, instead of how it was for you or how you think it should be.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > That maybe something has changed since you took advantage of them? Some things have indeed changed: 1. it's easy to get a loan for the full cost of college 2. pay for STEM engineers is a lot higher 3. you can start a business and reach a worldwide audience for free 4. you can start a business and hand over the logistics of shipping world wide for free (i.e. pay as you go, no upfront costs) 5. you can learn anything you want, via the internet, instantly for free 6. you can start investing in stocks for only a few bucks, with ZERO commission fees 7. you can reach collaborators for your business all over the world, for nothing 8. you can get funding via gofundme.com or kickstarter.com. Wow! 9. if you run an online business, nobody needs to know your name, background, race, religion, age, gender, whatever, unless you choose to tell them. Even then, you can just make it up, because nobody checks or cares None of this was available in my youth. Want a ticket from poverty to the middle class? This works: a. stay in school b. pay attention in school and learn the stuff c. get a loan and go to college, selecting a lucrative major d. don't do drugs e. don't do crimes.
- newswasboring 4y ago
  > Then take the high road first. Why? When has taking the high road ever worked out for the ones with lesser power?
  - oblio 4y ago
    > Why? When has taking the high road ever worked out for the ones with lesser power? Oh, it's worked plenty well. It's worked well to get a lot of: "there are more pressing issues right now, let's solve this one tomorrow", where that "tomorrow" in many cases ended up being 150 years later.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Your power is the value you bring to the business, and your ability to walk away and sell your services to their competitor.
    - atoav 4y ago
      Oh sweet summer child, ever read of company towns?
      - nickpp 4y ago
        This is mostly a thing of the past. Wikipedia lists about a handful of company towns left in US today.
    - newswasboring 4y ago
      This is the most inhumane thing I've read today. And I've read all your comments in this thread.
      - cercatrova 4y ago
        What is inhumane about it? I've read your other comments too, it doesn't really seem like you're arguing in good faith when you state superlatives like "this is the most inhumane thing I've read today" or "this is the worst take I've seen in forever on this topic" or "I am going to be incredibly rude now." Please make your points without resorting to such extreme language.
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  Ah, yes, I'm sure employers will treat you nicer if you just lick their boots a bit harder.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Being polite and nice is not at all the same as obsequious.
    - TheCoelacanth 4y ago
      Being accommodating to someone who has proven conclusively that they have no intention to do the same to you is not politeness.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        I didn't say it was. Arguing with what I didn't say is pointless.

by atoav 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago

> Employers tend to view their employees at adversaries first. Then take the high road first. > e.g. by ignoring safety regulations If employers do that, then the employees need to report them to the regulators. Don't need a union for that.

atoav 4y ago
> If employers do that, then the employees need to report them to the regulators. Don't need a union for that. Good luck on thst. The regulator is in the same country club as your boss. On top of that most of the worker rights and safety rules that regulator is meant to check came to be because unions fought for them. Read on the history of these rights and regulations in the dawn of worker movements. This is not some new unknown topic, but something people have fought for over centuries. The incentives of the regulators and governing bodies will rarely align with workers rights, hence the need for those people to organize for their own good. Don't get me wrong here I do not suggest that employers are always evil and unions always good, this is not what history shows. Far from it. Yet historically whenever workers lives improved, there is a big chance unions were involved as a driving force. I'd love to see a world where companies would treat their employees in such a way, unions don't need to exist. But that is not how companies operate in most cases.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  There's nothing wrong with a union working for a safer workplace.
genocidicbunny 4y ago
> Then take the high road first. The high road doesn't pay the rent. It doesn't feed your kids. You're in an incredibly privileged position Walter, and unlike the vast majority of people you have actual bargaining power and the ability to negotiate terms. Most everything you've written in this thread is incredibly out of touch with the situation many workers, especially ones that would find themselves working at an Amazon warehouse, find themselves in.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  I come from a lower middle class family. I went to public school. My parents paid for half of my college, I did the other half. These days anyone can get a loan for the full ride. My parents financed my other endeavors with exactly $0. I'm bald, not tall and nobody has ever called me handsome. Starbucks offers to pay full college tuition for their employees. I suspect the salient difference with me is I see opportunity everywhere in America, where others do not. All I'm doing here is pointing out that opportunity. Note that the millions who try to sweep over the border into America seem to see that opportunity, too.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    And you don't stop to consider why everyone doesn't see the same opportunities you did? That maybe something has changed since you took advantage of them? > Starbucks offers to pay full college tuition for their employees. No starbucks offers tuition reimbursement, for the online programs only, at one school, for some degrees, if you complete the entire degree while working at starbucks. Almost no one is actually able to take advantage of that. It's for their customers to feel better about supporting starbucks not for their workers to go to college. This is actually a great opportunity for you to pull your head out of your ass and see how the world actually is, instead of how it was for you or how you think it should be.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > That maybe something has changed since you took advantage of them? Some things have indeed changed: 1. it's easy to get a loan for the full cost of college 2. pay for STEM engineers is a lot higher 3. you can start a business and reach a worldwide audience for free 4. you can start a business and hand over the logistics of shipping world wide for free (i.e. pay as you go, no upfront costs) 5. you can learn anything you want, via the internet, instantly for free 6. you can start investing in stocks for only a few bucks, with ZERO commission fees 7. you can reach collaborators for your business all over the world, for nothing 8. you can get funding via gofundme.com or kickstarter.com. Wow! 9. if you run an online business, nobody needs to know your name, background, race, religion, age, gender, whatever, unless you choose to tell them. Even then, you can just make it up, because nobody checks or cares None of this was available in my youth. Want a ticket from poverty to the middle class? This works: a. stay in school b. pay attention in school and learn the stuff c. get a loan and go to college, selecting a lucrative major d. don't do drugs e. don't do crimes.
newswasboring 4y ago
> Then take the high road first. Why? When has taking the high road ever worked out for the ones with lesser power?
- oblio 4y ago
  > Why? When has taking the high road ever worked out for the ones with lesser power? Oh, it's worked plenty well. It's worked well to get a lot of: "there are more pressing issues right now, let's solve this one tomorrow", where that "tomorrow" in many cases ended up being 150 years later.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Your power is the value you bring to the business, and your ability to walk away and sell your services to their competitor.
  - atoav 4y ago
    Oh sweet summer child, ever read of company towns?
    - nickpp 4y ago
      This is mostly a thing of the past. Wikipedia lists about a handful of company towns left in US today.
  - newswasboring 4y ago
    This is the most inhumane thing I've read today. And I've read all your comments in this thread.
    - cercatrova 4y ago
      What is inhumane about it? I've read your other comments too, it doesn't really seem like you're arguing in good faith when you state superlatives like "this is the most inhumane thing I've read today" or "this is the worst take I've seen in forever on this topic" or "I am going to be incredibly rude now." Please make your points without resorting to such extreme language.
TheCoelacanth 4y ago
Ah, yes, I'm sure employers will treat you nicer if you just lick their boots a bit harder.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Being polite and nice is not at all the same as obsequious.
  - TheCoelacanth 4y ago
    Being accommodating to someone who has proven conclusively that they have no intention to do the same to you is not politeness.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      I didn't say it was. Arguing with what I didn't say is pointless.