6 ms·

Uh, have you just not noticed employer tactics? They don't care about it being win-win. You clearly have extreme anti-union bias to the point you havent notice

Uh, have you just not noticed employer tactics? They don't care about it being win-win. You clearly have extreme anti-union bias to the point you havent noticed how incredibly employee hostile the companies that unions form around are, to an absurd extent. It's gone so far that the magnitude of a win for the employer is so much higher than for the employee that the goal posts have shifted to absurdity. You're still putting the onus for improving the situation on the party with far, far less power. Which makes no sense.

WalterBright 4y ago
When I see a union offering win-win solutions, I will change my mind. I am not anti-union. I am anti the tactics they use. Unions are part of the free market. A union is a business that sells labor.
- atoav 4y ago
  And companies are businesses that exploit labor to make profits. One creates value for many people, the other for few. The ethics on this one is not hard.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under socialism, it's the other way around.
    - atoav 4y ago
      And if someone tells you these are the only options, thats how you know they are from the US.
      - nickpp 4y ago
        Please feel free to suggest a 3rd option. I live in Europe and I don't know any.
  - satvikpendem 4y ago
    > exploit labor to make profits If you believe in the LTV, which many don't. Many instead believe in the subjective (market) theory of value.
    - 8note 4y ago
      It's the case only if you believe there's a transitive property to value, which has some evidence to it. You tend not to see somebody sell a gold watch for less than the gold that's in it. Especially so if there's profit being made on the watch
      - satvikpendem 4y ago
        Sure, for physical goods that may be somewhat true, but LTV presupposes that labor itself has a value beyond what the market would pay, which does not seem to be the case, in capitalism or in other previous systems of mercantile trade.
- tchaffee 4y ago
  If a union is a business that sells labor how is it not win-win for companies to be able to buy labor? That's also a reductive view of unions. The 40 hour work week, weekends off, healthcare, and banning child labor wouldn't have resulted from your characterization. What tactics do businesses use? Can you name any that you are against?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > The 40 hour work week, weekends off, healthcare, and banning child labor wouldn't have resulted from your characterization. Healthcare benefits came about in WW2 because Roosevelt instituted a wage freeze. Companies could not offer higher wages to get the best workers, so they found a workaround by offering health care benefits. It turned out to be a big win for workers because the cost of those benefits was pre-tax, rather than post-tax. So it stuck. Children are not freely consenting adults, which is why they get special legal protection. That's irrelevant to what we're discussing here.
    - tchaffee 4y ago
      You avoided this question: What tactics do businesses use? Can you name any that you are against?
    - tchaffee 4y ago
      You're disingenuously leaving out the massive role unions played in the 1940s and 1950s in negotiating far better healthcare benefits. Please explain how you would negotiate as an individual to get better healthcare benefits from Amazon when the benefits are provided as the same exact package to all employees. You can't. It never happens. Give even one example of an employee at a large company that has an individualized healthcare benefits package. > Children are not freely consenting adults, which is why they get special legal protection. That's irrelevant to what we're discussing here. And yet many businesses used child labor. These are the business you are claiming negotiate in good faith and fairly.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
- caskstrength 4y ago
  > Unions are part of the free market. A union is a business that sells labor. Not even that. If a state doesn't have a right-to-work law, then union becomes a monopoly on the labor market for particular company or even the whole industry.

WalterBright 4y ago

When I see a union offering win-win solutions, I will change my mind. I am not anti-union. I am anti the tactics they use. Unions are part of the free market. A union is a business that sells labor.

atoav 4y ago
And companies are businesses that exploit labor to make profits. One creates value for many people, the other for few. The ethics on this one is not hard.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under socialism, it's the other way around.
  - atoav 4y ago
    And if someone tells you these are the only options, thats how you know they are from the US.
    - nickpp 4y ago
      Please feel free to suggest a 3rd option. I live in Europe and I don't know any.
- satvikpendem 4y ago
  > exploit labor to make profits If you believe in the LTV, which many don't. Many instead believe in the subjective (market) theory of value.
  - 8note 4y ago
    It's the case only if you believe there's a transitive property to value, which has some evidence to it. You tend not to see somebody sell a gold watch for less than the gold that's in it. Especially so if there's profit being made on the watch
    - satvikpendem 4y ago
      Sure, for physical goods that may be somewhat true, but LTV presupposes that labor itself has a value beyond what the market would pay, which does not seem to be the case, in capitalism or in other previous systems of mercantile trade.
tchaffee 4y ago
If a union is a business that sells labor how is it not win-win for companies to be able to buy labor? That's also a reductive view of unions. The 40 hour work week, weekends off, healthcare, and banning child labor wouldn't have resulted from your characterization. What tactics do businesses use? Can you name any that you are against?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > The 40 hour work week, weekends off, healthcare, and banning child labor wouldn't have resulted from your characterization. Healthcare benefits came about in WW2 because Roosevelt instituted a wage freeze. Companies could not offer higher wages to get the best workers, so they found a workaround by offering health care benefits. It turned out to be a big win for workers because the cost of those benefits was pre-tax, rather than post-tax. So it stuck. Children are not freely consenting adults, which is why they get special legal protection. That's irrelevant to what we're discussing here.
  - tchaffee 4y ago
    You avoided this question: What tactics do businesses use? Can you name any that you are against?
  - tchaffee 4y ago
    You're disingenuously leaving out the massive role unions played in the 1940s and 1950s in negotiating far better healthcare benefits. Please explain how you would negotiate as an individual to get better healthcare benefits from Amazon when the benefits are provided as the same exact package to all employees. You can't. It never happens. Give even one example of an employee at a large company that has an individualized healthcare benefits package. > Children are not freely consenting adults, which is why they get special legal protection. That's irrelevant to what we're discussing here. And yet many businesses used child labor. These are the business you are claiming negotiate in good faith and fairly.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
caskstrength 4y ago
> Unions are part of the free market. A union is a business that sells labor. Not even that. If a state doesn't have a right-to-work law, then union becomes a monopoly on the labor market for particular company or even the whole industry.